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Thread: What Does it Mean to Rebuke and Reprove?

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    Default What Does it Mean to Rebuke and Reprove?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusEnoch
    I am not about to... stop being confrontational. My mandate is 2 Timothy 4:2-3. I apologize in advance for any problems that this creates.
    Marcus' comment appeared in another thread, and we thought it worthy of a thorough discussion. He claims his mandate (an order from God) is II Timothy 4:2-3. Before we begin, let's first look at the verse:

    Paul counseled his young protege to "Preach the word. Be prepared, in season and out of season. Reprove, rebuke, and encourage all with patience and teaching."

    Since Marcus began his statement with the bold declaration that he would not stop being confrontational, we believe his focus in II Timothy 4:2 are the words "rebuke" and "reprove."

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REBUKE?

    The Greek word for "rebuke" is epitimao. Oddly enough, the word literally means to "put honor upon something" (epi means upon; timao means honor). However, we're not so much concerned with its literal meaning as we are with how the word is used in Scripture.

    The word appears quite often in the Gospels. Jesus rebuked the winds; Jesus rebuked the unclean spirits from talking; Jesus rebuked an illness; Jesus rebuked people from exposing His identity; Jesus told us to rebuke our brother when he trespasses against us; the disciples tried to rebuke mothers from bringing their children to Jesus; the Pharisees tried to rebuke people from openly praising Him; Jesus rebuked Peter after Peter tried to rebuke Him for explaining His death, burial and resurrection; and finally, Michael the archangel demonstrated that God would rebuke Satan.

    The word for rebuke does not mean to "criticize" or "condemn." From its consistent use in Scripture, it obviously means to prohibit. The word seems to imply a recognition of the rebuker's authority on the part of the person (or thing) being rebuked, much like an officer issuing orders in the military. Based on its use in Scripture, we would define the word epitimao as: the issuance of a direct order, by a person imbued with authority, for the cessation of a specific action, with the immediate expectation of complete and total obedience to the order.

    In other words, rebuke is a command to immediately stop doing something.

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REPROVE?

    The Greek word elegcho has the root meaning, "to bring something to light; to expose it to light," and is used to mean "to point something out to someone."

    For example, in John 16:8, Jesus said the holy Spirit would bring to light the concepts of sin, righteousness and judgment. And again, in John 3:19, Jesus said that evil men will not come to the light, because they don't want their evil deeds exposed. We see this process in action in John 8:9, when the accuser's evil motives were exposed or brought to light, and they fled the scene. In Matthew 18:15, Jesus told us to point out our brother's trespass, that is, we are to bring it to light, so that our brother might have the opportunity to correct it.

    In Ephesians 5:13, Paul said that "all things become visible when they are exposed to the light." The word "visible" here is the Greek word elegcho. In other words, the apostle was saying, "all things are brought to the light when they are exposed to the light." However, we must take careful note, for it is to the light they must be exposed. Evil deeds must never be exposed by pointing fingers and calling names (that is called negative criticism). If we understand Scripture correctly, then evil deeds must only be brought to light by shining light upon them.

    IN CLOSING

    In our opinion, the most important thing to remember about II Timothy 4:2 is that Paul warned us to "forbid certain actions" (epitimao) and "bring things to light" (elegcho) "with patience and teaching." If we attempt to rebuke and reprove another person's sin, minus the spirit of patience or the ability to properly teach, then we are not doing the work of God. To focus on the two negative words (reprove and rebuke) while ignoring the two positive words (patience and teaching) will inevitably disqualify us from building upon the ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ, for we will only be tearing it down.

    ...

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    What about "encourage"?
    -----------
    "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." - John 5:39-40 (ESV)
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    "Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
    “In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi

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    Default What Does it Mean to Encourage?

    The word translated "encourage" comes from the Greek word parakaleo, which literally means to "call to one’s side."

    1. BEG FOR SOMETHING DESIRED

    However, the word has three implications, the first being, "to beg or entreat another for something desired." For example: Matthew 8:31-34 - The demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine." And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region.Mark 5:22-23 - And behold, one of the rulers of the synagogue came. When he saw Jesus, he fell at His feet and begged Him earnestly, saying, "My little daughter lies at the point of death. Come and lay Your hands on her, that she may be healed." Matthew 14:35-36 - When the men of that place recognized Him, they brought to Him all who were sick and begged that they might touch the hem of His garment.


    2. ENCOURAGE TO DO GOOD

    The word also implies "to encourage someone to do something good." For example: Acts 2:40 - With many words, he testified and encouraged them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."II Thessalonians 3:12 - Now those who are such we command and encourage through our Lord Jesus Christ that they work in quietness and eat their own bread.Titus 2:6 - Likewise, encourage the young men to be sober-minded.

    3. COMFORT THE HURTING

    The word can also imply "to comfort the hurting." For example: Matthew 5:4 - Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.II Corinthians 7:6 - God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus.I Thessalonians 3:7 - Therefore, brethren, in all our affliction and distress we were comforted concerning you by your faith.

    PAUL'S BEAUTIFUL MESSAGE

    So, from all the examples above, we can see that the word parakaleo can mean to "beg someone for something we desire," to "encourage someone to do something good," and to "comfort those who are hurting." It is a beautiful word that conveys three beautiful meanings. And those meanings become especially relevant as we consider what Paul was telling his young protege in II Timothy 4:2. The apostle was telling him to "command destructive behaviors to cease" (epitimao) by "bringing them to the light" (elegcho) and "begging" them to "do what is good" instead, so that everyone who is hurting will be "comforted" (parakaleo).

    It is a truly powerful message for all of us.

    ...
    Last edited by GospelCompilation; 11-23-2009 at 05:33 PM. Reason: to restructure the entire post, for ease of reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GospelCompilation View Post
    Marcus' comment appeared in another thread, and we thought it worthy of a thorough discussion. He claims his mandate (an order from God) is II Timothy 4:2-3. Before we begin, let's first look at the verse:

    Paul counseled his young protege to "Preach the word. Be prepared, in season and out of season. Reprove, rebuke, and encourage all with patience and teaching."

    Since Marcus began his statement with the bold declaration that he would not stop being confrontational, we believe his focus in II Timothy 4:2 are the words "rebuke" and "reprove."

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REBUKE?

    The Greek word for "rebuke" is epitimao. Oddly enough, the word literally means to "put honor upon something" (epi means upon; timao means honor). However, we're not so much concerned with its literal meaning as we are with how the word is used in Scripture.
    For clarification purposes, lets look at what else the word means, as it seems to be common practise for some to leave out critical meanings in favor of twisting the scripture to fit their ends.



    Epitimao also means :
    • to raise the price of
    • to adjudge, award, in the sense of merited penalty
    • to tax with fault, rate, chide, rebuke, reprove, censure severely
    • to admonish or charge sharply
    As the reader can see, these meanings, being more in keeping with Pauls writings on the subjectm have a much deeper meaning than the author of the quoted post wants his audience to see. These meanings are more in line with the Hebrew word for rebuke yakach, which also shares many of the same meanings:

    1) to decide, judge
    2) to adjudge, appoint
    3) to show to be right, prove
    4) to convince, convict
    5) to reprove, chide
    6) to correct, rebuke
    b) (Hophal) to be chastened
    c) (Niphal) to reason, reason together
    d) (Hithp) to argue


    The word for rebuke does not mean to "criticize" or "condemn."
    This is from the mind of the author who chooses to overlook the fact that the act of judging, reproving, and severely censuring (all definitions above), carries with it an air of condemnation of the actions that are being rebuked. In the sense of Marcus' posts, he clearly condemns the misuse of scripture and perversion of meanings that are clearly demonstrated by the author of the above quoted post.

    From its consistent use in Scripture, it obviously means to prohibit. The word seems to imply a recognition of the rebuker's authority on the part of the person (or thing) being rebuked, much like an officer issuing orders in the military. Based on its use in Scripture, we would define the word epitimao as: the issuance of a direct order, by a person imbued with authority, for the cessation of a specific action, with the immediate expectation of complete and total obedience to the order.


    In other words, rebuke is a command to immediately stop doing something.
    One of the meanings, yes. But the author here attempts to place on emphasis on his own command of scripture and vocabulary as being the be-all end-all authority of the meaning of rebuke, while clearly demonstrating that he has overlooked much of the context of the word.

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REPROVE
    ?

    The Greek word elegcho has the root meaning, "to bring something to light; to expose it to light," and is used to mean "to point something out to someone."
    Once again, let's resort to an impartial authority on the subject: Strongs.

    1) to convict, refute, confute
    a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
    b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
    2) to find fault with, correct
    a) by word
    1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
    2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
    b) by deed
    1) to chasten, to punish

    It would seem that Paul had much the same thought processes that Marcus uses: he refused to allow the perversion of the truth of the gospel by those who would seek to make a name for themselves by preaching a gospel that was not of Christ. Paul, it seems, was a witchhunter when it came to heretics.

    For example, in John 16:8, Jesus said the holy Spirit would bring to light the concepts of sin, righteousness and judgment.
    Now what this scripture actually says, reader, is that the Holy Spirit will reprove (elegcho)(convict with shame) the worls of their sins, not bring to light the concept of sin. This demonstrates how easy it is for the Deceiver to slip a lie into a discussion on scripture if you are not wary of his devices. Satan comes to kill steal and destroy, and the one thing he wishes to destroy the most is the truth of God's word.

    And again, in John 3:19, Jesus said that evil men will not come to the light, because they don't want their evil deeds exposed. We see this process in action in John 8:9, when the accuser's evil motives were exposed or brought to light, and they fled the scene. In Matthew 18:15, Jesus told us to point out our brother's trespass, that is, we are to bring it to light, so that our brother might have the opportunity to correct it.
    you know what the strange thing is, reader? This paragraph demonstrated that the author is completely capable of teaching truth. Everything in this passage is true, and yet, it is surrounded by half truths and partiality of context. Why? Becase Satan knows that if he sent a person to speak to a group of Bible believeing Christians that preached a gospel of 100% lies, that person would be rejected immediately by anyone with half a brain. But if that person inserted just enough false doctrine to make the post easy to swallow and hard to discern it's fallacies to someone who hasn't thoroughly studied the scriptures, then that false doctrine can creep into a persons mind little by little until the reader is led astray.


    In our opinion, the most important thing to remember about II Timothy 4:2 is that Paul warned us to "forbid certain actions" (epitimao) and "bring things to light" (elegcho) "with patience and teaching." If we attempt to rebuke and reprove another person's sin, minus the spirit of patience or the ability to properly teach, then we are not doing the work of God. To focus on the two negative words (reprove and rebuke) while ignoring the two positive words (patience and teaching) will inevitably disqualify us from building upon the ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ, for we will only be tearing it down.

    ...
    I leave it to the reader to decide for themselves. Did Paul express a desire to have false doctrine loose in the church? Because he continued with these words:
    "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
    Pauls words were a warning against heresy, not a plee for Tim to cozy up to the unbelievers who chose to turn away from the truth of the gospel.
    Last edited by edlong; 11-27-2009 at 08:16 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by GospelCompilation View Post
    Marcus' comment appeared in another thread, and we thought it worthy of a thorough discussion. He claims his mandate (an order from God) is II Timothy 4:2-3. Before we begin, let's first look at the verse:
    Quote Originally Posted by GospelCompilation View Post

    Paul counseled his young protege to "Preach the word. Be prepared, in season and out of season. Reprove, rebuke, and encourage all with patience and teaching."

    Since Marcus began his statement with the bold declaration that he would not stop being confrontational, we believe his focus in II Timothy 4:2 are the words "rebuke" and "reprove."

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REBUKE?

    The Greek word for "rebuke" is epitimao. Oddly enough, the word literally means to "put honor upon something" (epi means upon; timao means honor). However, we're not so much concerned with its literal meaning as we are with how the word is used in Scripture.

    The word appears quite often in the Gospels. Jesus rebuked the winds; Jesus rebuked the unclean spirits from talking; Jesus rebuked an illness; Jesus rebuked people from exposing His identity; Jesus told us to rebuke our brother when he trespasses against us; the disciples tried to rebuke mothers from bringing their children to Jesus; the Pharisees tried to rebuke people from openly praising Him; Jesus rebuked Peter after Peter tried to rebuke Him for explaining His death, burial and resurrection; and finally, Michael the archangel demonstrated that God would rebuke Satan.

    The word for rebuke does not mean to "criticize" or "condemn." From its consistent use in Scripture, it obviously means to prohibit. The word seems to imply a recognition of the rebuker's authority on the part of the person (or thing) being rebuked, much like an officer issuing orders in the military. Based on its use in Scripture, we would define the word epitimao as: the issuance of a direct order, by a person imbued with authority, for the cessation of a specific action, with the immediate expectation of complete and total obedience to the order.

    In other words, rebuke is a command to immediately stop doing something.

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REPROVE?

    The Greek word elegcho has the root meaning, "to bring something to light; to expose it to light," and is used to mean "to point something out to someone."
    Better get a new dictionary. You've either got a seriously mixed up dictionary, or you have rewritten the one you have.

    According to Vincent's Word Studies (which I know that you have used in the past) for the verse 2 Timothy 4:2, , reprove and rebuke are defined as:
    Reprove (ἔλεγξον)
    Rather, convict of their errors. See on 1 Timothy 5:20 and John 3:20. In Paul, 1 Corinthians 14:24; Ephesians 5:11, 13. Comp. ἐλεγμόν conviction, 3:16.
    Rebuke (ἐπιτίμησον)
    In Pastorals only here. oP. Mostly in the Synoptic Gospels, where it is frequent. It has two meanings: rebuke, as Matthew 8:26; Luke 17:3, and charge, as Matthew 12:16; 16:20, commonly followed by ἵνα that or λέγων saying (Matthew 20:31; Mark 1:25; 3:12; 8:30; Luke 4:35), but see Luke 9:21. The word implies a sharp, severe rebuke, with, possibly, a suggestion in some cases of impending penalty (τιμή); charge on pain of. This might go to justify the rendering of Holtzmann and von Soden, threaten. To charge on pain of penalty for disobedience implies a menace, in this case of future judgment.
    —Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament
    By the fact that you specifically specifically used the word epitimao, it is obvious that you looked up the word, so you knew perfectly well what the proper meanings were, but chose to define them as you wanted them to mean.

    epitimao literally means:
    from <G1909> (epi) and <G5091> (timao); to tax upon, i.e. censure or admonish; by implication forbid :- (straitly) charge, rebuke.
    —Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary
    while elencho literally means:
    of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish :- convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.
    —Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary
    What have you to say for yourself? You have either just printed a false statement, not the first either. Or you have overtly lied. Which is it?

    I rebuke you. Stop teaching falsehoods! You’ll go where all liars go, to Washington D.C., or worse!
    __________________

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    Baruch hashem ha Messiah Y'shua
    Baruch hashem Adonai!

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    Default The Common Failure of Relying on a Concordance

    Quote Originally Posted by GospelCompilation
    The Greek word for "rebuke" is epitimao. Oddly enough, the word literally means to "put honor upon something" (epi means upon; timao means honor).

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusEnoch
    Epitimao literally means: "from (epi) and (timao); to tax upon, i.e. censure or admonish; by implication forbid :- (straitly) charge, rebuke — Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary." While elencho literally means: "of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish, convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove — Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary." What have you to say for yourself? You have either just printed a false statement, not the first either. Or you have overtly lied. Which is it?
    Unfortunately for your question, the answer is neither. We gave the literal meaning of epi and timao. All you've done is quote a concordance, which is not an etymological tool of any sort. A concordance doesn't tell the actual meaning of a word, but rather tells how the KJV translated a particular word. So, a concordance can be of some help, but only to a point. The words bapto and baptizmo are perfect examples. What a concordance says a word means does not convey the word's actual meaning at all, in any sense of the word.

    That's why we look at the etymology of words. We trace their actual meaning. And if one takes the time to study the words of Scripture, rather than parrot what they've been taught or simply expounding on it from their carnal perspective, they can actually learn something from it. What's funny about Marcus' retort is that the Strong's actually gave him a clue to the words actual meaning (epi and timao); he just failed to search for himself and find out what the words themselves actually mean.


    Quote Originally Posted by Edlong
    For clarification purposes, let's look at what else the word means, as it seems to be common practice for some to leave out critical meanings in favor of twisting the scripture to fit their ends.
    Again, you have relied solely on a concordance for your information - which simply tells you how the KJV translated a certain word. This is why there is so much confusion in the church, because the KJV translators gave so many different meanings to a single Greek word. And, almost without fail, the many different meanings they gave slanted God's word negatively, thus giving the world a false impression of Scripture.

    My wife and I have found that Scripture says a lot more positive stuff than it does negative - at least, once a person delves into the actual meaning of the words, and discovers how certain phrases were used, and finds out what the idioms mean. All too often, people rely on an English translation - which can, more often than not, do more harm than good; and then, some folks simply rely on tradition, which is even worse.

    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GospelCompilation View Post
    WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REBUKE?

    The Greek word for "rebuke" is epitimao. Oddly enough, the word literally means to "put honor upon something" (epi means upon; timao means honor). However, we're not so much concerned with its literal meaning as we are with how the word is used in Scripture.
    We've already addressed this false teaching in the previous post, so I'm not going to waste any more time on this definition.
    How then did Jesus use the word?

    Mark 1:24Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
    25And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. 26And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
    In this verse, Jesus not only tells the demon to come out, but in essence tells the demon to be silent. Or to quote the venacular of today, "Shut up!"

    32And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
    Jesus did not just forbid Peter, did He? He chastised Peter openly and sternly!
    How did Paul use the term?
    1 Timothy 5:20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
    Rebuke, that others also may fear. That is not a prohibition, that is a stern verbal chastisement.

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REPROVE?

    The Greek word elegcho has the root meaning, "to bring something to light; to expose it to light," and is used to mean "to point something out to someone."

    For example, in John 16:8, Jesus said the holy Spirit would bring to light the concepts of sin, righteousness and judgment. And again, in John 3:19, Jesus said that evil men will not come to the light, because they don't want their evil deeds exposed. We see this process in action in John 8:9, when the accuser's evil motives were exposed or brought to light, and they fled the scene. In Matthew 18:15, Jesus told us to point out our brother's trespass, that is, we are to bring it to light, so that our brother might have the opportunity to correct it.

    In Ephesians 5:13, Paul said that "all things become visible when they are exposed to the light." The word "visible" here is the Greek word elegcho. In other words, the apostle was saying, "all things are brought to the light when they are exposed to the light." However, we must take careful note, for it is to the light they must be exposed. Evil deeds must never be exposed by pointing fingers and calling names (that is called negative criticism). If we understand Scripture correctly, then evil deeds must only be brought to light by shining light upon them.
    [/quote]
    I will allow that you may have misread the correct definition for this word since you use elegcho, and the proper word is elencho, (where you came up with elegcho, I haven't a clue) and allow for your definition in light of the way that you have expressed Ephesians 5:13.

    Let's look at how other commentators have looked at this verse and the words rebuke and reprove.
    Reprove. Or convince. 2 Timothy 3:16. The meaning is, that he was to use such arguments as would convince men of the truth of religion, and of their own need of it.

    Rebuke. Rebuke offenders. Titus 2:15. See the use of the word in Matthew 8:26, 12:16, (rendered charged Matthew 16:22, 17:18; Matthew 19:13, 20:31, Luke 4:35,39, 17:3, 18:15, Jude 1:9. In the New Testament the word is used to express a judgment of what is wrong, or contrary to one's will, and hence to admonish or reprove. It implies our conviction that there is something evil, or some fault in him who is rebuked. The word in this verse rendered reprove, does not imply this, but merely that one may be in error, and needs to have arguments presented to convince him of the truth. That word also implies no superior authority in him who does it. He presents reasons, or argues the case, for the purpose of convincing. The word here rendered rebuke, implies authority or superiority, and means merely that we may say that a thing is wrong, and administer a rebuke for it, as if there were no doubt that it was wrong. The propriety of the rebuke rests on our authority for doing it, not on the arguments which we present. This is based on the presumption that men often know that they are doing wrong, and need no arguments to convince them of it. The idea is, that the minister is not merely to reason about sin, and convince men that it is wrong; but he may solemnly admonish them not to do it, and warn them of the consequences.

    —Barnes' Notes on the New Testament

    Reprove—Ελεγξον· Confute, the false teacher.
    Rebuke—Επιτιμησον· Reprove cuttingly and severely those who will not abandon their sins.
    Adam Clarke's Commentary on the New Testament
    Or how about Matthew Henry's Commentary on the New Testament:
    3. He must tell people of their faults: “Reprove them, rebuke them. Convince wicked people of the evil and danger of their wicked courses. Endeavour, by dealing plainly with them, to bring them to repentance. Rebuke them with gravity and authority, in Christ’s name, that they may take thy displeasure against them as an indication of God’s displeasure.”
    IN CLOSING

    In our opinion, the most important thing to remember about II Timothy 4:2 is that Paul warned us to "forbid certain actions" (epitimao) and "bring things to light" (elegcho) "with patience and teaching." If we attempt to rebuke and reprove another person's sin, minus the spirit of patience or the ability to properly teach, then we are not doing the work of God. To focus on the two negative words (reprove and rebuke) while ignoring the two positive words (patience and teaching) will inevitably disqualify us from building upon the ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ, for we will only be tearing it down.
    ...

    Your words sound good here, but the truth of your posts may be seen in the several posts you have published in the past week since returning.
    You have attacked eleven, edlong, and myself with the most incessant, obnoxious, offensive, meaningless, drivel, propaganda and half-truths to be heard since the last election.

    Do not dare to lecture anyone about being inoffensive when you have permeated this forum with your whining diatribes about how you were wrongfully banned from this board.
    Shall I repost some of your rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gospelcompilation
    What we actually wrote in our post was: "Since his arrival here, he has singled us out as his worst enemy, and has assailed us with insults and slanderous remarks and called us names (his favorite are heretic and unbeliever and blasphemer), to the point that we have (in the manner of David in the Psalms) begun to pray for his demise."

    Admin banned us for three days for this statement, even though we specified that we were praying in the manner of David in the Psalms.

    What's interesting is Marcus' comment which preceded our post. He said: "I'll be in Mesa on Friday the 30th, want to tell me this to my face then?" In our opinion, that is an implied threat of physical violence. For, what do people mean when they say, "Say that to my face!" We have always taken it to mean, "Say it to my face, so I can punch your lights out!"

    What do you suppose MarcusEnoch meant when he spoke these words? Were they not a threat? Because that's how we took it!
    And yet, my post continued as such:
    I'm going to continue to extend the invitation.
    If you don't show up, I'll still enjoy a 12 ounce sirloin marinated in Jack Daniel's steaksauce with mushrooms and a baked potato!
    And if you're spoiling for a fight, come ahead anyway.
    I have a great recipe for pigs knuckles.

    I have a prayer for you-
    My prayer is that you might come to know Jesus, not just think you know Him or know about Him. But to come to KNOW Him.
    In other words, I pray one day, you'll get saved.
    Well, that's gc, all over. Post part of the truth, but never the whole of it.
    __________________

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    Quote Originally Posted by GospelCompilation View Post
    Unfortunately for your question, the answer is neither. We gave the literal meaning of epi and timao. All you've done is quote a concordance, which is not an etymological tool of any sort. A concordance doesn't tell the actual meaning of a word, but rather tells how the KJV translated a particular word. So, a concordance can be of some help, but only to a point. The words bapto and baptizmo are perfect examples. What a concordance says a word means does not convey the word's actual meaning at all, in any sense of the word.
    That is why the editor adds the meanings to the words. Because Strong's is one of the foremost authorities in word studies, many learned scholars refer and defer to Strong's. But you obviously think you are more learned than them.

    Quote Originally Posted by gc
    That's why we look at the etymology of words. We trace their actual meaning. And if one takes the time to study the words of Scripture, rather than parrot what they've been taught or simply expounding on it from their carnal perspective, they can actually learn something from it. What's funny about Marcus' retort is that the Strong's actually gave him a clue to the words actual meaning (epi and timao); he just failed to search for himself and find out what the words themselves actually mean.
    Time to you to go back to school. The actual meaning is there in my post for all to see. And yours is there for all to laugh at.


    Again, you have relied solely on a concordance for your information - which simply tells you how the KJV translated a certain word. This is why there is so much confusion in the church, because the KJV translators gave so many different meanings to a single Greek word. And, almost without fail, the many different meanings they gave slanted God's word negatively, thus giving the world a false impression of Scripture.
    Your ignorance is showing again, or at least your lack of reading comprehension. This is why we used not only Strong's Concordance, which is an authority on epistemology, but we also used Vincent's Word Studies, and Strong's Dictionary. Do you think you know better than them? Are you so egotistically deluded that you think you are smarter than the authors of these tomes? You probably do. More is the pity for you.
    You are under the asumption that you are above the written word, that is why you keep trying to change it to mean what you want it to mean. This is called arrogance, hubris, and pride. You do not get to dictate what words mean, any more than you get to rewrite the word of G~d to make it mean what you want it to.
    Deal with it.
    You can grow up and deal with reality, or you can sit at home on your pc and be rebuked and reproved for your arrogant nonsense.
    Your choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by GC
    My wife and I have found that Scripture says a lot more positive stuff than it does negative - at least, once a person delves into the actual meaning of the words, and discovers how certain phrases were used, and finds out what the idioms mean. All too often, people rely on an English translation - which can, more often than not, do more harm than good; and then, some folks simply rely on tradition, which is even worse.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    ...
    And then there is you, who simply makes things up to suit what he wants people to beliee.
    I bet you keep the psychiatrists in the Phoenix VA busy.
    By the way, I'll be in Mesa area for the next two days. Let your paranoia reign!!!
    Last edited by Nobby; 11-28-2009 at 12:18 AM. Reason: fixed quote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edlong View Post
    For clarification purposes, lets look at what else the word means, as it seems to be common practise for some to leave out critical meanings in favor of twisting the scripture to fit their ends.




    Epitimao also means :
    • to raise the price of
    • to adjudge, award, in the sense of merited penalty
    • to tax with fault, rate, chide, rebuke, reprove, censure severely
    • to admonish or charge sharply
    As the reader can see, these meanings, being more in keeping with Pauls writings on the subjectm have a much deeper meaning than the author of the quoted post wants his audience to see. These meanings are more in line with the Hebrew word for rebuke yakach, which also shares many of the same meanings:

    1) to decide, judge
    2) to adjudge, appoint
    3) to show to be right, prove
    4) to convince, convict
    5) to reprove, chide
    6) to correct, rebuke
    b) (Hophal) to be chastened
    c) (Niphal) to reason, reason together
    d) (Hithp) to argue




    This is from the mind of the author who chooses to overlook the fact that the act of judging, reproving, and severely censuring (all definitions above), carries with it an air of condemnation of the actions that are being rebuked. In the sense of Marcus' posts, he clearly condemns the misuse of scripture and perversion of meanings that are clearly demonstrated by the author of the above quoted post.



    One of the meanings, yes. But the author here attempts to place on emphasis on his own command of scripture and vocabulary as being the be-all end-all authority of the meaning of rebuke, while clearly demonstrating that he has overlooked much of the context of the word.



    Once again, let's resort to an impartial authority on the subject: Strongs.

    1) to convict, refute, confute
    a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
    b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
    2) to find fault with, correct
    a) by word
    1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
    2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
    b) by deed
    [b]1) to chasten, to punish

    It would seem that Paul had much the same thought processes that Marcus uses: he refused to allow the perversion of the truth of the gospel by those who would seek to make a name for themselves by preaching a gospel that was not of Christ. Paul, it seems, was a witchhunter when it came to heretics.



    Now what this scripture actually says, reader, is that the Holy Spirit will reprove (elegcho)(convict with shame) the worls of their sins, not bring to light the concept of sin. This demonstrates how easy it is for the Deceiver to slip a lie into a discussion on scripture if you are not wary of his devices. Satan comes to kill steal and destroy, and the one thing he wishes to destroy the most is the truth of God's word.



    you know what the strange thing is, reader? This paragraph demonstrated that the author is completely capable of teaching truth. Everything in this passage is true, and yet, it is surrounded by half truths and partiality of context. Why? Becase Satan knows that if he sent a person to speak to a group of Bible believeing Christians that preached a gospel of 100% lies, that person would be rejected immediately by anyone with half a brain. But if that person inserted just enough false doctrine to make the post easy to swallow and hard to discern it's fallacies to someone who hasn't thoroughly studied the scriptures, then that false doctrine can creep into a persons mind little by little until the reader is led astray.



    I leave it to the reader to decide for themselves. Did Paul express a desire to have false doctrine loose in the church? Because he continued with these words:
    "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
    Pauls words were a warning against heresy, not a plee for Tim to cozy up to the unbelievers who chose to turn away from the truth of the gospel.
    Again, you have nailed it. Good job edlong. Will gc hear it? Or will it be lost to the wind and voices that blow through his ears?
    __________________

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusEnoch
    I will allow that you may have misread the correct definition for this word since you use elegcho, and the proper word is elencho, (where you came up with elegcho, I haven't a clue).
    And we have no idea where you came up with elencho. Especially since the source you quoted uses the word elegcho:
    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusEnoch
    Reprove—Ελεγξον· Confute, the false teacher.
    Do you see the Greek word? It is spelled Ελεγξον. See the γ? That's a dynamic equivalent of g. The dynamic equivalent of an n looks like a v. So, before you start trying to argue the meaning of Greek words, perhaps you should at least learn the Greek alphabet.

    Here is how others think the word should be spelled (notice the g):

    Strong's G1651
    ἐλέγχω
    elegchō
    el-eng'-kho

    Thayer's G1651
    ἐλέγχω
    elegchō

    Robertson's Word Pictures: "Will convict the world (elegxei ton kosmon). Future active of elegchō."

    These are three reputable sources that claim the root word is elegcho. So, if you want to belittle us, then you have to belittle them. But that's only half the problem, Marcus. Because, if you can't get the spelling of a Greek word correct, then what could make us think you're qualified to get the word's etymological meaning correct?

    ...

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