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Thread: In Matthew 13:32 are the birds satanic?

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroom View Post
    ...You are reading into the parable of Matt 13:31-32 things it does not say.

    31) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
    32) Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

    It's a simple simile where the kingdom of God is compared to a mustard seed. It will start out small but grow, strengthen, and prosper and take over the whole world.
    But aren't you ignoring something it does say? That when it is grown... "the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof"? Are those pointless words?

    And it doesn't start small and grow, it starts small, dies and THEN grows large. So this is not a story of growth but of resurrection first of all.

    The seed is Jesus.
    The planter is the Father.
    The field is the earth.
    The tree is the new regime (king Jesus and his subjects).
    And the birds nesting in the new regime are just buzzards and sparrows???
    It's a wonderful life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruminator View Post
    Would anyone want to weigh in on whether or not the tree is grown yet? Or is it still future?

    And is the tree Jewish, with gentiles in its branches? Or "the new man[kind]" with sinners in the branches?
    The seed is the kingdom of the gospel inaugurated by Jesus (Mt 3:2) during his earthly ministry.
    The planter is Jesus Christ who preached the gospel of the kingdom (Mt 3:2).
    The tree is the spread of the gospel kingdom throughout the world after Jesus' resurrection.
    The birds nesting in the kingdom are all those who come into the kingdom during time.
    Last edited by smoky; 08-11-2017 at 03:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruminator View Post
    Would anyone want to weigh in on whether or not the tree is grown yet? Or is it still future?

    And is the tree Jewish, with gentiles in its branches? Or "the new man[kind]" with sinners in the branches?
    When Jews are signified as a tree- it is the olive tree.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruminator View Post
    I've heard both of the following on multiple occasions:

    * symbols are consistent in the scripture. IE: seeds are always a symbol of God's words, oil is always a symbol of the holy spirit/breath, etc.

    * birds are always a satanic symbol

    Are both of those ideas false?

    Or are the birds here satanic?

    Matthew 13:32and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES.
    I think the birds in Matthew 13:22 refers to the general Christian body who take heed in disciples instructions.

    Birds are not always symbolic, sometimes they are literal: "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." (Matthew 10:29)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    I think the birds in Matthew 13:22 refers to the general Christian body who take heed in disciples instructions.

    Birds are not always symbolic, sometimes they are literal: "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." (Matthew 10:29)
    And the Jews knew the difference between bushes and trees.

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    I just came upon a similar discussion with some interesting takes here:

    https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...orical-meaning
    It's a wonderful life

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    Quote Originally Posted by shroom View Post
    I did not scream.


    That's right, that parable Jesus shared was a STORY, the point of which is verse 31. We know from clear Bible teaching that the dead know nothing, have no thoughts or emotions, cannot work, and cannot praise God. The reason Jesus shared that story is because due to the influence of the Greeks that's what the Pharisees believed at the time, that when people died their soul/spirit went directly to "Abraham's bosom" or to the "bad side of the gulf". He was "meeting them where they were", so-to-speak.

    Is the picture painted in Luke 16 what you believe? That saved people who had died spent 1000's of years on the "good" side of the gulf listening to the screams of those in torment on the "bad" side?

    The point of the parable is that since the Pharisees did not hear Moses and the prophets, they would likewise not be persuaded even though a man were to rise from the dead. He was right.


    You are reading into the parable of Mat 13:31-32 things it does not say.

    31) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
    32) Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

    It's a simple simile where the kingdom of God is compared to a mustard seed. It will start out small but grow, strengthen, and prosper and take over the whole world.
    I did not scream.
    that was a metaphor!

    That's right, that parable Jesus shared was a STORY, the point of which is verse 31. We know from clear Bible teaching that the dead know nothing, have no thoughts or emotions, cannot work, and cannot praise God. The reason Jesus shared that story is because due to the influence of the Greeks that's what the Pharisees believed at the time, that when people died their soul/spirit went directly to "Abraham's bosom" or to the "bad side of the gulf". He was "meeting them where they were", so-to-speak.
    So in your esteemed opinion, Jesus told an account unlike any other parable (no use of language "likened unto"," is as", "can be compared to",) He didn't even use the phrase the kingdom of heaven. This would be the only parable where He used specific names.

    YOu are also now stating that Jesus used a known lie to Him and did not remove that lie, but instead used it to say 1 line? No where else did Jesus cotton lies to point to truths! But you want everyone here to believe He condoned a lie just here?


    Is the picture painted in Luke 16 what you believe? That saved people who had died spent 1000's of years on the "good" side of the gulf listening to the screams of those in torment on the "bad" side?
    Well though it is not logicasl to you-- yes I do! There is nothing to say that they were bothered by it! The church will see the billions thrown into the lake of fire and we will rejoice in Gods perfect justice!

    The point of the parable is that since the Pharisees did not hear Moses and the prophets, they would likewise not be persuaded even though a man were to rise from the dead. He was right.
    Well the Holy one of Israel could have saved much talk by just going to those phrases. Why did He keep promoting something you say He knew was a lie?
    And what does the rest of the parable mean? All that detail.
    You are reading into the parable of Mat 13:31-32 things it does not say.

    31) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
    32) Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

    It's a simple simile where the kingdom of God is compared to a mustard seed. It will start out small but grow, strengthen, and prosper and take over the whole world.
    I will grant you that many hold to your side. I do not! This is just a small disagreement. The greater problem is you now saying Jesus used a known lie and by using it implicitly approved of it and even reinforced it. being the renowned teacher He had become with the masses.

    Sorry but there is nothing in the language of the account to say it is just a parable. All other parables are easily identified. Here Jesus says "There was a man"

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolidad View Post
    Sorry but there is nothing in the language of the account to say it is just a parable. All other parables are easily identified. Here Jesus says "There was a man"
    “a certain rich man.” This record of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, not a literal portrayal of events that were actually occurring. Jesus spoke the parable to the Pharisees who believed that every person had a soul that lived on after the person died, and the souls of evil people were tormented, while the souls of good people were not. By wording the parable the way he did, Christ was “becoming a Pharisee to win the Pharisees,” (cp. 1 Cor. 9:19-22). The parable makes a couple of very profound points. Perhaps the most important one is the way he ended the parable, that if hardhearted and rebellious people would not believe Moses and the prophets, they would not change their mind and believe, even if someone rose from the dead (Luke 16:31). This was shown to be absolutely correct when both Lazarus and Christ rose from the dead and yet the religious leaders did not believe.

    Another point of the parable was that the ways a person deals with his wealth and earthly possessions will directly affect what happens to him on Judgment Day. Luke chapter 15 has three parables that show how valuable people are and how they should be loved and cared for. Those three parables are then followed in Luke chapter 16 by two parables about how important it is for people to properly steward their material possessions. Luke 16:14 points out that the Pharisees, who were listening to Jesus, “loved money.” The parables in Luke 16 were stern warnings to these greedy Pharisees that their selfishness would have severe consequences.

    In spite of the fact that the record is a parable, just as in every parable, there is some truth in it. Scholars debate exactly how much truth is in the parable. For example, some scholars believe in disembodied souls, while others do not. Of those that do, some believe those souls have fingers that can be dipped in water, while others do not. Some scholars point out that it is very unlikely that Abraham would have the authority to allow someone from Paradise to return to earth to warn the unsaved, so the rich man asking that of Abraham would not be literal. Other scholars doubt that unsaved people in torment can speak to the saved people in Paradise.

    When it comes to determining what is true about things such as life after death, our only reliable source is the Bible, and conclusions must be drawn from the entire scope of Scripture, not just individual sections. It is not good exegesis to use a parable as a primary source of doctrine about what happens to people when they die, especially when that parable contradicts other clear verses of Scripture. We know from many other verses of Scripture that when a person dies their soul does not live on, but the person is dead in every way until the Rapture or one of the resurrections, which is a point we will expand upon later.

    One thing that is true in the parable is that some people will not die immediately in the lake of fire, but will be in torment for a period of time as a retribution for their sins. This conclusion can be drawn from many verses of Scripture, and thus the clear message of the Bible is that unless people get forgiveness for their sins they will be punished for the evil they have done (cp. Ps. 62:12; Ecc. 11:9; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 33:20; Matt. 16:27; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 2:23). Romans 2:5 says of stubborn people, “you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath.” Just as godly people by their good works store up treasure for the life to come, wicked people store up wrath for themselves.

    It is important to realize that although many Bible teachers use this parable to teach that there is everlasting torment for the unsaved, the parable itself never says that. Nowhere in the parable is it stated or implied that the rich man’s torment will go on forever. The parable simply portrays him being in torment, and a period of torment for the unsaved is expected, based upon the Scripture. However, from the scope of Scripture we learn that the unsaved in the lake of fire eventually die and are consumed, a point we will make again later.

    People who assert that the record about Lazarus is factual and not a parable argue that Jesus did not say it was a parable and furthermore, no other parable contains a proper name. While it is true that Jesus did not say he was speaking a parable, it is also true that many parables start without Jesus saying he is speaking a parable. A few examples from Matthew include the parable of the Workers in the Field (Matt 20:1-16), the Two Sons (Matt 21:28-31), the Wise and Foolish Virgins (Matt 25:1-13), and the Talents (Matt 25:14-30; this is a different parable from the parable of the Minas in Luke 19:11-27 which is specifically said to be a parable).

    Very solid evidence that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable comes from paying attention to the fact that this parable opens in basically the same way many other parables in Luke open. The Parable of the Good Samaritan opens with, “A certain man” (Luke 10:30, YLT). Then the Parable of the Rich Fool opens with, “Of a certain rich man” (Luke 12:16 YLT). Then the Parable of the Unfruitful Fig Tree opens with “A certain one” (Luke 13:6, YLT). Next the Parable of the Great Supper opens with “A certain man” (Luke 14:16, YLT). Then the parable of the Prodigal Son opens with, “A certain man” (Luke 15:11). Then in Luke 16, the Parable of the Shrewd Manager opens with, “A certain man was rich” (Luke 16:1, YLT). Following immediately after the Parable of the Shrewd Manager is the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, and it opens the exact same way as the Parable of the Shrewd Manager does, but starts with the word “and,” marking the continuation of Jesus’ thought and teaching. It opens, “And a certain man was rich” (Luke 16:19, YLT).

    We have just seen that many parables in Luke open with “a certain man.” What is just as important is that none of Jesus’ other teachings, only his parables, open that way. Going through all the different teachings of Jesus in Luke shows us that when he started speaking, using the phrase, “a certain man” or “a certain one,” he was speaking a parable.

    In answer to the assertion that no parable contains a proper name, we must realize that there is no rule that says a parable cannot have a proper name. Furthermore, actually, it is not true that parables do not contain proper names. For example, the parable of the Good Samaritan mentions both Jerusalem and Jericho. While these are not names of people, they are proper names. Also, it is generally acknowledged that Ezekiel 23 is an allegory or parable about Israel and it contains the proper names “Oholah” (“my tent”) and “Oholibah” (“my tent is in her”). While it is true that these are names assigned by God to Samaria (Israel) and Judah to make the point that He had been personally involved with them, it is also true that “Lazarus” (“whom God has helped”) is a name Jesus could assign to show that no one gets to Paradise without God’s help. So it is not actually true that no parable in the Bible contains proper names, and many of them contain very specific other details, such as amounts of money or goods, or times of the day.

    There are many things besides the way the parable opens and its context that shows this record about the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. As we have already pointed out the most major one is that the scope of Scripture reveals that once a person dies, he is dead in every way—body and soul—until he is raised at one of the Judgments. No one is alive in heaven (or Paradise) or hell immediately after they die. Of course, someone reading this parable and thinking it is literal would take the position that this parable proves that theology false, but every text of Scripture must fit into the scope of the rest of Scripture. Scripture teaches via many clear verses that dead people are dead and in the grave, not alive in heaven or hell (see Is There Death After Life? by Graeser, Lynn, Schoenheit). For example, Ecclesiastes 9:10 says, “…for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.” Yet the rich man and Lazarus had knowledge and wisdom despite the fact that they were “dead.” Luke 16 and Ecclesiastes 9 cannot contradict one another, because they are both God’s Word, and, as we have said, there are many other clear verses in the Bible that, like Ecclesiastes, teach that when a person dies he is dead in every way until he is raised.

    What happens to dead people is that they will be raised in one of the resurrections (while dead Christians will be raised in the Rapture). Dead people who are resurrected in the “first resurrection” (Rev. 20:5-6), also called the “Resurrection of the Righteous” (Luke 14:14; Acts 24:15), and “the resurrection of life” (John 5:29), will live forever with Jesus. Dead people who are resurrected in the second resurrection, the Resurrection of the unrighteous (Acts 24:15) and who are judged unworthy of everlasting life will be thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death (Rev. 20:14) and people thrown into it will die and their bodies will be totally consumed [For more on people not “burning in Hell” forever, see Appendix 5: “Annihilation in the Lake of Fire,” and commentary on Matthew 5:22, “Gehenna”. For more on the Rapture and the resurrections, see commentary on Acts 24:15].
    Continued..

  9. #79
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    Another reason to view this record as a parable is that it is set with four other parables, and it flows well with them. Still another reason is that the information in this parable was not the kind of factual information that Jesus could have known. How could Jesus have known about a conversation that was going on between two dead people? The traditional answer is that Jesus was God so he knew everything, or he could have known it by revelation. However, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, and if they thought he was recounting to them an actual incident of a man who had brothers living among them, and that somehow Jesus knew who had gone to Paradise and who had gone to Gehenna, and furthermore he knew what these dead people were saying to each other, they would have thought he was insane or had demons, and he would have had no credibility with them whatsoever. In contrast, by presenting his teaching as a parable with a valid point, he had the opportunity to make a big impact on the Pharisees, who already believed the basic premises in the parable.

    Another reason to believe that the record is a parable is that it seems inconceivable that saved people could enjoy everlasting life if they were hearing the cries and pleas of people in torment. Could it really be that right now, today, people in everlasting torment are begging people in Paradise for water but are being ignored? And could it be that saved people who were merciful and loving throughout their earthly life and took care of the poor, wretched, and needy, are in their perfected state more hardhearted than they were in their sinful earthly state? While it is true that God is a God of justice, it seems hardly possible that the everlasting joy that is promised to those who are saved could include purposely ignoring tormented people crying out for help and relief, especially since according to orthodox teaching, those cries of pain go on for eternity. It fits the scope of Scripture, and makes much more sense, that this is a parable and Jesus was speaking it to the Pharisees who loved their money and believed in a destiny similar to that which Jesus portrayed in the parable.

    A large number of conservative and orthodox biblical scholars believe that the record of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. An exhaustive list is not possible, but the commentators represent many different theological backgrounds and denominations. Bibles and Study Bibles include: The Catholic Study Bible edited by D. Senior and J. Collins; The Companion Bible by E. W. Bullinger; The ESV Study Bible by Crossway Bibles in Wheaton Illinois; The MacArthur Study Bible edited by John MacArthur; The NIV Study Bible edited by K. Barker.

    Some Bible dictionaries that recognize the record as a parable are: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia edited by Geoffrey W. Bromiley; Holman Bible Dictionary edited by Trent Butler; Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible edited by H. B. Hackett; A Dictionary of the Bible edited by James Hastings; and the Mercer Dictionary of the Bible edited by Watson Mills.

    Some commentaries that recognize the record as a parable are: The New International Commentary on the New Testament by Norval Geldenhuys; Exposition of the Gospel According to Luke by William Hendriksen; A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Jamison, Fausset, and Brown; The Interpretation of St. Luke’s Gospel by R. C. H. Lenski; A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica by John Lightfoot; Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible by Matthew Henry; The International Critical Commentary: Luke by Alfred Plummer; Word Pictures in the New Testament by A. T. Robertson.

    Some of the other specialty books that recognize the record as a parable include: The Greek Testament by Henry Alford; The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church edited by Cross and Livingstone; The Fire that Consumes by Edward Fudge; All the Parables of the Bible by Herbert Lockyer; The Expositor’s Greek New Testament by W. R. Nicoll; Notes on the Parables of Our Lord by R. C. Trench; and The Parables of Jesus in the Light of the Old Testament by Claus Westermann.

    Many of the authors listed above believe in the everlasting torment of the unsaved, so the fact that they consider Luke 16:19-31 to be a parable is important support for its being a parable. Many unsaved people will spend time in torment in the lake of fire as a retribution for their sins. That point is well made in the parable. This wonderful parable makes many good points, not the least of which is that we need to take our lives seriously. Our life is a gift to us, and God holds us responsible for living in a way that brings glory to Him. If we are disobedient or rebellious, and squander the life He has given us, there will be serious consequences.
    http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Luke/chapter16/19

    I know it's a big post, but please read it. It addresses several of your arguments.

    If you disagree, well, that's your right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    I think the birds in Matthew 13:22 refers to the general Christian body who take heed in disciples instructions.

    Birds are not always symbolic, sometimes they are literal: "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." (Matthew 10:29)
    But teh mustard sewed and birds are a parable so the birds are symbolic.

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