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Thread: Cyrus' Decree or Artaxerxes'

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    and?
    First of all, you might as well have said Cyrus or George Washington. Artaxerxes is off the map. If you hold the decree in your hand it's probably Artaxerxes III with an urban renewal plan.

    For the rest, let's start with the Book of Daniel.
    The book of Daniel does not contradict itself!
    Chapter 1: 3rd year of Jehoiakim, Nebuchadnezzar sacks Jerusalem takes Daniel and friends captive.
    Chapter 2: 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel gets famous.
    Chapter 3: His friends get out of a hot spot.
    Chapter 4: Nebuchadnezzar has problems but recovers.
    Chapter 5: Belshazzar calls Daniel out of retirement and is killed that night 31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.
    Chapter 6: Darius gives Daniel a big job and he gets out of a tight spot.
    Chapter 7: First year of Belshazzar, Daniel has a vision (out of chronology but no contradiction).
    Chapter 8: Third year of Belshazzar, Daniel has another vision (still before chapter 5).
    Chapter 9: In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans, Daniel has another vision. Who is Ahasuerus? Modern versions say Xerxes. This is still no problem for Daniel. It could be slightly before or after chapter 6.
    Chapter 10: 3rd year of Cyrus, no problem if Cyrus replaced Darius, already a senior citizen, Daniel has another vision.
    Chapter 11: It seems to start back in first year of Darius, but it's the angel still telling Daniel a story that begins years earlier.
    Chapter 12: The angel finishes the prophecy and the book ends.

    Though Daniel has only a few chapters out of sequence, it is consistent within itself.
    The contradiction with the secular sequence of Persian kings, and the name of Darius' dad, forces us to deny some detail of either Daniel or the above history.
    Is there a way out?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    First of all, you might as well have said Cyrus or George Washington. Artaxerxes is off the map. If you hold the decree in your hand it's probably Artaxerxes III with an urban renewal plan.
    I don't know what you're talking about. You posted a list of the Persia Media kings, prompting me to ask, 'AND?' so I don't know where you're coming from with this response, 'I should have said Cyrus or George Washington.'


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    For the rest, let's start with the Book of Daniel.
    Rest of what? Which post are you referring to?


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    The book of Daniel does not contradict itself!
    And when did I say it did?


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    Chapter 1: 3rd year of Jehoiakim, Nebuchadnezzar sacks Jerusalem takes Daniel and friends captive.
    Chapter 2: 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel gets famous.
    Chapter 3: His friends get out of a hot spot.
    Chapter 4: Nebuchadnezzar has problems but recovers.
    Chapter 5: Belshazzar calls Daniel out of retirement and is killed that night 31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.
    Chapter 6: Darius gives Daniel a big job and he gets out of a tight spot.
    Chapter 7: First year of Belshazzar, Daniel has a vision (out of chronology but no contradiction).
    Chapter 8: Third year of Belshazzar, Daniel has another vision (still before chapter 5).
    Chapter 9: In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans, Daniel has another vision. Who is Ahasuerus? Modern versions say Xerxes. This is still no problem for Daniel. It could be slightly before or after chapter 6.
    Chapter 10: 3rd year of Cyrus, no problem if Cyrus replaced Darius, already a senior citizen, Daniel has another vision.
    Chapter 11: It seems to start back in first year of Darius, but it's the angel still telling Daniel a story that begins years earlier.
    Chapter 12: The angel finishes the prophecy and the book ends.

    Though Daniel has only a few chapters out of sequence, it is consistent within itself.
    The contradiction with the secular sequence of Persian kings, and the name of Darius' dad, forces us to deny some detail of either Daniel or the above history.
    Is there a way out?
    I still don't know what you're talking about. First you said Daniel had no contradictions, now you're claiming there's a contradiction in the sequence of kings? Where? Plus there's no contradiction in the list you posted, only the name of the imposter is the issue.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    I don't know what you're talking about. You posted a list of the Persia Media kings, prompting me to ask, 'AND?' so I don't know where you're coming from with this response, 'I should have said Cyrus or George Washington.'
    Rest of what? Which post are you referring to?
    And when did I say it did?
    I still don't know what you're talking about. First you said Daniel had no contradictions, now you're claiming there's a contradiction in the sequence of kings? Where? Plus there's no contradiction in the list you posted, only the name of the imposter is the issue.
    In order of asking:
    Apparently you think there's at least one literate person dumb enough to think Artaxerxes made the decree and not Cyrus. In case your right and the idiot visits this thread I want him to know Artaxerxes is not a suspect, though perhaps Darius or Cambyses could be postulated.

    The "rest" refers to everything that happened on Earth between 3100 and 329 bc. I'm willing to explore it fully if anyone else is. Cyrus' decree, if there's anything left to ralk about on that subject, impacts Ezra not Daniel. That's the next logical route for discussion, but it's better to get Daniel out of the way first.

    You didn't say Daniel contradicts Daniel and I want you to know both that I don't think so and I understand why some people do think so.

    Daniel does not contradict Daniel. For decades I read Daniel over and over, saw it as a compact unit with no weak points. The only thing that confuses some reading the book is that the chapters are not in strict chronological order. I can even see good reasons. If you don't know Isaiah and Jeremiah do not have all chapters in chronological order either. The contradiction is Daniel versus secular history.
    If you didn't notice Daniel seems to present Darius coming after Belshazzar and before Cyrus. History cited above, says otherwise.
    Who do you think is right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    In order of asking:
    Apparently you think there's at least one literate person dumb enough to think Artaxerxes made the decree and not Cyrus. In case your right and the idiot visits this thread I want him to know Artaxerxes is not a suspect, though perhaps Darius or Cambyses could be postulated.

    The "rest" refers to everything that happened on Earth between 3100 and 329 bc. I'm willing to explore it fully if anyone else is. Cyrus' decree, if there's anything left to ralk about on that subject, impacts Ezra not Daniel. That's the next logical route for discussion, but it's better to get Daniel out of the way first.

    You didn't say Daniel contradicts Daniel and I want you to know both that I don't think so and I understand why some people do think so.

    Daniel does not contradict Daniel. For decades I read Daniel over and over, saw it as a compact unit with no weak points. The only thing that confuses some reading the book is that the chapters are not in strict chronological order. I can even see good reasons. If you don't know Isaiah and Jeremiah do not have all chapters in chronological order either. The contradiction is Daniel versus secular history.
    If you didn't notice Daniel seems to present Darius coming after Belshazzar and before Cyrus. History cited above, says otherwise.
    Who do you think is right?
    There's no argument there. History proves the facts. But there are many who claim Artaxerxes made the decree and not Cyrus, based on Ezra 4:6-7 and 6:14, the reason why I started this thread and posted especially the one verse that proves the "house" is the temple, because many claim that Cyrus only gave the decree to rebuild the city and not the temple.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    There's no argument there. History proves the facts. But there are many who claim Artaxerxes made the decree and not Cyrus, based on Ezra 4:6-7 and 6:14, the reason why I started this thread and posted especially the one verse that proves the "house" is the temple, because many claim that Cyrus only gave the decree to rebuild the city and not the temple.
    Who made those claims and with what agenda? Do they agree with the secular timeline of Persian kings I posted or some other timeline. Is any member of that community on this forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    Who made those claims and with what agenda? Do they agree with the secular timeline of Persian kings I posted or some other timeline. Is any member of that community on this forum?
    I told you already, the only difference/controversy is the name of the imposter that you had on the list. He is called many names, including (I assume) Artaxerxes in Ezra 4:7 and 6:14, and Ahasuerus in Ezra 4:6, the reason why some think these verses are referring to the real Artaxerxes, who was the 5th official king of Persia Media. but it was he, the imposter, that interrupted the rebuilding before Darius, the 3rd official king of Persia Media, dethroned him and reinstated the rebuilding, after the Israelites wrote Darius a letter concerning Cyrus' decree, during the time the building was ceased. I think that was in Darius' 2nd year of reign.
    Last edited by precepts; Yesterday at 04:15 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    I told you already, the only difference/controversy is the name of the imposter that you had on the list. He is called many names, including (I assume) Artaxerxes in Ezra 4:7 and 6:14, and Ahasuerus in Ezra 4:6, the reason why some think these verses are referring to the real Artaxerxes, who was the 5th official king of Persia Media. but it was he, the imposter, that interrupted the rebuilding before Darius, the 3rd official king of Persia Media, dethroned him and reinstated the rebuilding, after the Israelites wrote Darius a letter concerning Cyrus' decree, during the time the building was ceased. I think that was in Darius' 2nd year of reign.
    So this is the problem, then:
    And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.

    6 And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.

    7 And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue.

    This too presents no problem within the Book of Ezra. It affirms the sequence if me make Xerxes I into Ahasuerus.
    The secular timeline would cover over 70 years in those few verses. That could be a problem.
    Also this doesn't synchronize with Daniel putting Darius before Cyrus.
    Here we have Bible versus Bible.
    How do we get out of this?

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