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Thread: Cyrus' Decree or Artaxerxes'

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    If 2ndpillar or Precepts has an alternate history of the Persian Empire that fits the book of Daniel more comfortably I am eager to see and believe it. Please present it here.

    For those who denounce the Bible, making Moses the poor man's Harriet Tubman, credit the Hyksos with beating Jericho the usual way, make David a local chieftain and so forth I also request an alternate timeline for the region now known as Israel. Remember there's an Old Testament battle confirmed word-for-word in Egyptian history.

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    What are you talking about?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    Bible timeline versus history:

    Genesis ends with the death of Joseph. Specific dating places that 2315 years after the fall of Adam.
    History affirms that Jacob and family moved to Egypt.
    Someone similar to Joseph is mentioned in Egyptian history.
    Genesis affirms Ur of the Chaldees was a flourishing city.
    Genesis mentions 4 Pharoahs but calls them only Pharoahs.

    Exodus has only Moses' genealogy from Levi and advances the story 198 years.
    It mentions 3 Pharoahs all called Pharoah.
    History confirms nothing.
    The problem is the 430 years of suffering in Egypt requires a loophole. I've heard the loophole. I don't like it.

    Leviticus covers one month with no confirmation.

    Numbers covers 39 years.
    It mentions Kings Sihon, Og and Balak.
    What does history say about those 3 kings?

    Deuteronomy covers one month with no confirmation.

    Joshua advances the story 30 years to Joshua's death.
    They conquer 31 named cities, using specific acts of God 5 times.
    History affirms Jericho was destroyed. They say the Hyskos defeated Jericho.

    Judges is a mess.
    Estimates have the last events chronologically (but not the end of the book) 292 years after the death of Joshua.
    However we don't know whether some judges reigned consecutively or concurrently in different regions.
    There seems to be at least 2 gaps with no judge or invading rulers accounted for.
    Does history mention King Ehud or the 5 lords of the Philistines?

    Ruth takes place within the era of the judges, affirming only the continued existence of Moab.
    The only context is the genealogy from Judah to David. If exactly true the average age of the fathers at the birth of their most famous son was 107.

    I Samuel overlaps judges and covers 138 years.
    Saul's palace has been discovered.

    II Samuel covers 40 years, the reign of David.
    His palace and other documents affirm his existence.
    Several wars are described, including victories that extend the border to the Tigris and Euphrates.
    Many kings and countries are mentioned, some affirmed by history.
    The big controversy is his victory over Jebus, which he renamed Jerusalem.
    Convince the Palestinians that happened and they should leave Jerusalem.

    I Kings covers 89 years: Solomon and the divided kingdom.
    The first temple is built and it says that was 480 years after Jericho. That doesn't fully explain the timeline in Judges.
    Can you?
    Assyria and Egypt are mentioned including specific kings.

    II Kings covers about 308 years, including the destruction of the northern kingdom by Assyria and the southern kingdom by Nebuchadnezzar.
    Secular history affirms destruction of Jerusalem in 586 bc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    Bible timeline versus history:

    Genesis ends with the death of Joseph. Specific dating places that 2315 years after the fall of Adam.
    Not according to my calculations, Israel left Egypt in the 2,648th year of creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    History affirms that Jacob and family moved to Egypt.
    Someone similar to Joseph is mentioned in Egyptian history.
    Genesis affirms Ur of the Chaldees was a flourishing city.
    Genesis mentions 4 Pharoahs but calls them only Pharoahs.

    Exodus has only Moses' genealogy from Levi and advances the story 198 years.
    It mentions 3 Pharoahs all called Pharoah.
    History confirms nothing.
    The problem is the 430 years of suffering in Egypt requires a loophole. I've heard the loophole. I don't like it.
    I've never heard of any loophole?


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    Leviticus covers one month with no confirmation.

    Numbers covers 39 years.
    It mentions Kings Sihon, Og and Balak.
    What does history say about those 3 kings?
    I'm not following. What are you trying to point out, that history and the scriptures don't agree 100 percent? because enough of history aligns with the scriptures to prove it true.



    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    Deuteronomy covers one month with no confirmation.

    Joshua advances the story 30 years to Joshua's death.
    They conquer 31 named cities, using specific acts of God 5 times.
    History affirms Jericho was destroyed. They say the Hyskos defeated Jericho.

    Judges is a mess.
    Estimates have the last events chronologically (but not the end of the book) 292 years after the death of Joshua.
    However we don't know whether some judges reigned consecutively or concurrently in different regions.
    There seems to be at least 2 gaps with no judge or invading rulers accounted for.
    Does history mention King Ehud or the 5 lords of the Philistines?

    Ruth takes place within the era of the judges, affirming only the continued existence of Moab.
    The only context is the genealogy from Judah to David. If exactly true the average age of the fathers at the birth of their most famous son was 107.

    I Samuel overlaps judges and covers 138 years.
    Saul's palace has been discovered.

    II Samuel covers 40 years, the reign of David.
    His palace and other documents affirm his existence.
    Several wars are described, including victories that extend the border to the Tigris and Euphrates.
    Many kings and countries are mentioned, some affirmed by history.
    The big controversy is his victory over Jebus, which he renamed Jerusalem.
    Convince the Palestinians that happened and they should leave Jerusalem.

    I Kings covers 89 years: Solomon and the divided kingdom.
    The first temple is built and it says that was 480 years after Jericho. That doesn't fully explain the timeline in Judges.
    Can you?
    Assyria and Egypt are mentioned including specific kings.

    II Kings covers about 308 years, including the destruction of the northern kingdom by Assyria and the southern kingdom by Nebuchadnezzar.
    Secular history affirms destruction of Jerusalem in 586 bc.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say, but I have read and used the scriptures to get the date from creation to now. I have calculated up to 500 yrs from the exodus to the temple construction. The rest is a secret, because I do have the date from creation to now.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Not according to my calculations, Israel left Egypt in the 2,648th year of creation.
    I've never heard of any loophole?
    I'm not following. What are you trying to point out, that history and the scriptures don't agree 100 percent? because enough of history aligns with the scriptures to prove it true.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say, but I have read and used the scriptures to get the date from creation to now. I have calculated up to 500 yrs from the exodus to the temple construction. The rest is a secret, because I do have the date from creation to now.
    That's 135 years later than my chronology. Mine has the exodus in 1491 bc. Is yours 1356 bc? I think some force it to the 1320s to make Ranses the Pharoah in the story.

    The question was wide, so I'm showing what I have and most of what I know secular history presents us with. I'd love to walk through these things point by point if someone here cooperates.

    The sequence of events in Judges-Ruth-I Samuel fascinates me most. I'd love to compare notes with anyone confident of their timeline and make a series of films or plays to tell it right to all.

    I don't know what you mean by secret. If you claim to know something noone else does and got the insight in a way the rest of us can't, don't expect me to follow you far.

    A few simple questions will be a good start:

    A few years ago on Politicalforum.com there was a thread called Ask a Jew why not? I asked questions and discovered the fundamentalist Jews have the Babylonians destroying Jerusalem in 423 bce instead of the 586 bce secular history presents. He said they don't care about the contradictions. Where do you place that event and should we ignore 586 bc?

    Several years ago on this forum I started a thread called Which Pharoah, asking who Abraham, Joseph, Moses and Solomon interacted with. What are your answers?

    Incidentally, why didn't the Bible specify what Pharoh's name was. Did the public not know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    That's 135 years later than my chronology. Mine has the exodus in 1491 bc. Is yours 1356 bc? I think some force it to the 1320s to make Ranses the Pharoah in the story.
    If I told you the exact date in bc, that would reveal the secret, but it was in the 1400s bc.


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    The question was wide, so I'm showing what I have and most of what I know secular history presents us with. I'd love to walk through these things point by point if someone here cooperates.

    The sequence of events in Judges-Ruth-I Samuel fascinates me most. I'd love to compare notes with anyone confident of their timeline and make a series of films or plays to tell it right to all.
    There's nothing in the books of Judges-Ruth that reveals anything concerning the date. I've been there, done that.


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    I don't know what you mean by secret. If you claim to know something noone else does and got the insight in a way the rest of us can't, don't expect me to follow you far.
    Then you don't have to, because I'm not willing to share.


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    A few simple questions will be a good start:

    A few years ago on Politicalforum.com there was a thread called Ask a Jew why not? I asked questions and discovered the fundamentalist Jews have the Babylonians destroying Jerusalem in 423 bce instead of the 586 bce secular history presents. He said they don't care about the contradictions. Where do you place that event and should we ignore 586 bc?
    First of all, I don't know the difference between 586 bce and 70ad. And, secondly, it doesn't matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    Several years ago on this forum I started a thread called Which Pharoah, asking who Abraham, Joseph, Moses and Solomon interacted with. What are your answers?
    Again, I can't answer these questions because they could possibly reveal the date from Creation.


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    Incidentally, why didn't the Bible specify what Pharoh's name was. Did the public not know?
    If you're referring to the Pharaoh of the Exodus, it could have been purposely withheld, by those who probably didn't want the world to know that the pharaoh of the Exodus was black. There's a lot of that going on when it comes to the scriptures.
    Last edited by precepts; 06-17-2017 at 05:20 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    If I told you the exact date in bc, that would reveal the secret, but it was in the 1400s bc.
    There's nothing in the books of Judges-Ruth that reveals anything concerning the date. I've been there, done that.
    Then you don't have to, because I'm not willing to share.
    First of all, I don't know the difference between 586 bce and 70ad. And, secondly, it doesn't matter.
    ain, I can't answer these questions because they could possibly reveal the date from Creation.
    If you're referring to the Pharaoh of the Exodus, it could have been purposely withheld, by those who probably didn't want the world to know that the pharaoh of the Exodus was black. There's a lot of that going on when it comes to the scriptures.
    There's a lot going on in this thread, but if you think knowing which Pharoah Abram interacted with will reveal a secret only you and God knows, let's get right to that.
    Abram's meeting with Pharoah comes in Genesis 12, implying it was part of his first trip from Ur of the Chaldees. That would imply he was 75 or 76, but actually the only thing we can be sure of is that it happened before the other event just like it at age 99. That's because the king in that story asks if he will also destroy a good city, meaning it was after Sodom and Gomorrah.
    That gives me a window of 2009 to 2033 years after the fall of Adam. Perhaps you have a different date. If so where'd you get it?
    Using Ussher's 4004 bc for creation 2009 years later is 1995 bc.

    Every time I look at a list of Pharoahs the dates are older than before. The first Pharoah Menes was dated between the 2500s and 2900s 20 years ago. Now he's pushed back to the 3100s, preceded by the Scorpion King, Crocodile King and Bird King. (They just want more Mummy movies.)
    In any case the latest puts Nabwatyre Mentuhotep IV of the 11th dynasty on the throne from 1997 to 1991 bc.
    He's so obscure they left him off the original lists.
    Was it YHWH or embarrassed Egyptians that left him out?
    I prefer to dismiss these new additions and just remove those 6 years.
    That would make his predecessor Sankhare Mentuhotep III the one reigning when Abram was 75.
    His dates are listed as 1010-998 bc. Of course that means he died not long after meeting Abram. That seems inconsistent with the blessing at the end of the story.
    We need a Pharoah who lasted a while.
    The Wikipedia entry then lists 3 "enigmatic kings listed only in Nubia": Segersen, Qakare In and Lyebkhentre.
    These are among the black pharoahs you might have a valid point about, but I refuse to believe the Bible would omit their names for that reason. The Bible shamelessly mentions a few real black people.
    The absence of dates for those 3 supports my belief that the early dynasties of Egypt ran concurrently in different regions.
    Therefore I can look back to the 10th dynasty for suspects. They list 4 kings as reigning in the 10th dynasty, and though they assign 2130 and 2040 bc for the first and last all other details are question marks.
    What if dynasty 10, plus those 3 enigmatic guys, ended in 1991 bc. That makes the last of those 4: Merykare, the next suspect, along with those 3 enigmatic guys.
    Moving a few years later (since the chapter still offers a 9-year window even if we assume this was before the conception of Ishmael, we have the beginning of the 12th dynasty.
    That starts with Seheptibere Amenemhat 1991-1962 bc.
    That fits good because he reigned a long time. Also the Bible calls anyone who eventually became a big shot by the title even if he was not yet in the position. Remember Jesus in the cornfield?
    That means Pharoah's son and successor Khepukare Senusret I (1971-1926 bc) is also a suspect. As a very young man he might have been single when he saw Sarai. The Egyptian Pharoahs tended to have only one wife, making the death of the firstborn a big deal in Moses' time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    There's a lot going on in this thread, but if you think knowing which Pharoah Abram interacted with will reveal a secret only you and God knows, let's get right to that.
    Abram's meeting with Pharoah comes in Genesis 12, implying it was part of his first trip from Ur of the Chaldees. That would imply he was 75 or 76, but actually the only thing we can be sure of is that it happened before the other event just like it at age 99. That's because the king in that story asks if he will also destroy a good city, meaning it was after Sodom and Gomorrah.
    That gives me a window of 2009 to 2033 years after the fall of Adam. Perhaps you have a different date. If so where'd you get it?
    Using Ussher's 4004 bc for creation 2009 years later is 1995 bc.

    Every time I look at a list of Pharoahs the dates are older than before. The first Pharoah Menes was dated between the 2500s and 2900s 20 years ago. Now he's pushed back to the 3100s, preceded by the Scorpion King, Crocodile King and Bird King. (They just want more Mummy movies.)
    In any case the latest puts Nabwatyre Mentuhotep IV of the 11th dynasty on the throne from 1997 to 1991 bc.
    He's so obscure they left him off the original lists.
    Was it YHWH or embarrassed Egyptians that left him out?
    I prefer to dismiss these new additions and just remove those 6 years.
    That would make his predecessor Sankhare Mentuhotep III the one reigning when Abram was 75.
    His dates are listed as 1010-998 bc. Of course that means he died not long after meeting Abram. That seems inconsistent with the blessing at the end of the story.
    We need a Pharoah who lasted a while.
    The Wikipedia entry then lists 3 "enigmatic kings listed only in Nubia": Segersen, Qakare In and Lyebkhentre.
    These are among the black pharoahs you might have a valid point about, but I refuse to believe the Bible would omit their names for that reason. The Bible shamelessly mentions a few real black people.
    The absence of dates for those 3 supports my belief that the early dynasties of Egypt ran concurrently in different regions.
    Therefore I can look back to the 10th dynasty for suspects. They list 4 kings as reigning in the 10th dynasty, and though they assign 2130 and 2040 bc for the first and last all other details are question marks.
    What if dynasty 10, plus those 3 enigmatic guys, ended in 1991 bc. That makes the last of those 4: Merykare, the next suspect, along with those 3 enigmatic guys.
    Moving a few years later (since the chapter still offers a 9-year window even if we assume this was before the conception of Ishmael, we have the beginning of the 12th dynasty.
    That starts with Seheptibere Amenemhat 1991-1962 bc.
    That fits good because he reigned a long time. Also the Bible calls anyone who eventually became a big shot by the title even if he was not yet in the position. Remember Jesus in the cornfield?
    That means Pharoah's son and successor Khepukare Senusret I (1971-1926 bc) is also a suspect. As a very young man he might have been single when he saw Sarai. The Egyptian Pharoahs tended to have only one wife, making the death of the firstborn a big deal in Moses' time.
    First off, I didn't mention Abraham. I mentioned the Exodus, so I was referring to Moses. If I wanted to find out the Pharaohs during Abraham's time, I could, but I've never tried. Plus you have to understand that the world is not of God.

    Evolution is a tool of the Devil, so don't expect history and the world to tell you the truth concerning the timeline of the Pharaohs and Israel, because then that would prove God to be true, which the world definitely doesn't want.

    And since (like I told you before) the scriptures only provides evidence for the amount of years up to the 1st temple building, and the rest I had to figure out on my own, which is a secret, I can't reveal the exact year in bc years or the exact pharaoh, but I could give you the name of the dynasty, which will make perfect sense when you find out.

    The world definitely won't connect the dots for you.

    The dynasty Moses grew up in was the 18th dynasty, the Thutmosid Dynasty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighte...nasty_of_Egypt

    I don't just give out information like that. You have to earn it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    Everyone puts the exodus in the eighteenth dynasty.
    I asked for 4 Pharoahs. Therefore I assumed that your best guess about Abram would lead, with simple math, to at least 2 of the other 3. That would work if you believe the Pharoahs' respective reigns match the historians' estimates. If you have your own timeline for Egypt naming any of the 4 is only a vague clue.

    The last time I looked hard at the list I saw something interesting. If the exodus was 1491 bc, Moses was born in 1571 bc. The Pharoah then reigning died-and his dynasty with him-in 1570 bc. That would mean his death followed the decree by less than 3 years, much like Herod the Great against Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    Everyone puts the exodus in the eighteenth dynasty.
    So why didn't you mention that when I told you I knew the pharaoh of Moses's generation? Or why didn't you list that when you were listing your timeline?


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    I asked for 4 Pharoahs.
    And I told you that I only calculated Moses' pharaoh. So what's up with the ingratitude?


    Quote Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
    Therefore I assumed that your best guess about Abram would lead, with simple math, to at least 2 of the other 3. That would work if you believe the Pharoahs' respective reigns match the historians' estimates. If you have your own timeline for Egypt naming any of the 4 is only a vague clue.

    The last time I looked hard at the list I saw something interesting. If the exodus was 1491 bc, Moses was born in 1571 bc. The Pharoah then reigning died-and his dynasty with him-in 1570 bc. That would mean his death followed the decree by less than 3 years, much like Herod the Great against Jesus.
    You're true the scripted saying of casting your pearls before swines, the exact reason why I don't share sensitive information.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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