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Thread: The Errors in the Bible Bother Me.

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    This question reminds one very much of the "and just who is my neighbor" response. Did you mean to sound like that guy when challenged to love your neighbor as yourself? Probably not.
    This was not a challenge, Dottie. You think too highly of yourself. It was a straight forward honest question that anyone with half a brain should ask. I even qualified the various definitions of what others believe Jesus' teachings to be composed of, and what do I get? Certainly not an answer that conforms to this:

    (1Pe 3:15 KJV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

    But I'm sure you'll decide the question was disingenuous even though the one asking it (i.e. me) says it is not. Does dismissing my question help your conscience to deal with the fact that you provided no answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    I have never met anyone who wanted to follow Jesus' teaching who had no idea what that was and could not find out.
    Well from your answer, they certainly couldn't find out from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    Relationship with the living God and his personal instructions. We don't have a rule book. We have a father.
    Still doesn't answer the question. What comprises Jesus' teachings? From your phrase, "his personal instructions," it would seem you hear a voice that gives you personal instruction. No? At least LynnCF is honest about this, even though it would seem the voice speaking to her doesn't understand the Greek language. How do you differentiate that voice from your own thoughts? And if such IS differentiable, how do you resolve the problems when both equally sincere people being "led" just cannot agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    Never heard that criticism. None of the first century believers would have thought that either. I think you misunderstand his teaching method.
    I think you misunderstand the furor in the church that Paul caused. It's right there in Acts 21 & 22 if you'd care to read about it. This is why Paul argued tooth and nail, declaring from the rooftops that he too was just as valid an apostle as the 12. Why pen such a thing if it wasn't an issue? BTW, nothing much came of the 12, did it? Where are the epistles from Matthias? Or Andrew? Where are the acts of Lebbaeus Thaddaeus? Simon the Canaanite?

    Ok, so you read the Bible and you read the Bible, but do you ever ask critical questions? Ones meant to deal with these deeper issues?

    Yehushuan
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke
    (One of wisest men I've known. RIP 3/5/17)

    Current ignore list: JimD, smoky, De Maria


  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroom View Post
    Because I believe the writings of Paul are God-breathed. I believe Paul when he wrote that a dispensation of the gospel was committed to him, and that it was not revealed beforehand.

    Since you do not believe the Bible (as originally given) is the Word of God, and since you doubt many of the things Paul wrote, even at times calling Paul's character into question, we will not agree on things.
    It would seem you can't even agree that the "Bible (as originally given)" doesn't even exist. Belief in that kind of nonexistent thing DOES border on the delusional. So if the Bible (as originally given) exists, then where is it? And if it doesn't, then such belief is worthless, because you have expressed belief in something that can be PROVED to not exist. I think you know this but are holding on to some kind of fearful desperation that another Nag Hammadi or Qumran might happen. What good it that NOW?

    But if nothing else, then I am least assuaged that you post you believe in the God that Paul made up.

    Yehushuan

    PS: The critical question, shroom, is "Why do you believe that?" You believe the book because the book tells you to believe the book? The book doesn't even say that.
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke
    (One of wisest men I've known. RIP 3/5/17)

    Current ignore list: JimD, smoky, De Maria


  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by smoky View Post
    (That would be) according to your interpretation of prophetic riddles, which is no more certain than mine, where Satan is leashed during the church age, which only the end of time will end.

    Satan will be unleashed near the end of the church age (the symbolic 1000 years, Rev 4:6) which is near the end of time.
    Rev 20:
    2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Has the first resurrection occurred yet, smoky? No.
    Non-responsive. . .your interpretations of prophetic riddles enjoy no more certainty than mine.

    And keeping in mind, I interpret the first resurrection (Rev 20:4-6) to be the resurrection of the born again from spiritual death to eternal life at their re-birth and faith (if it is not the resurrection of Mt 27:52),

    where the immortal souls/spirits of those already beheaded for Jesus are reigning with Jesus (Rev 20:4-6) in heaven now (Eph 2:6),

    during the symbolic 1000 years (Rev 20:2-6) which is the church age

    when Satan is bound (2Pe 2:4; Ju 6; Lk 10:18-19; Rev 20:2-3).

    (I also note in the only passage in all of Scripture dealing with a millennial reign, there is no mention of Jews, Israel, Palestine, land or Jerusalem.)

    I interpret the second resurrection to be the general resurrection at the end of time,
    the first death to be physical death of the body, while
    the second death is eternal separation from God.

    Case in point regarding personal interpretation of prophetic riddles:

    Jesus said that he would return "soon."


    Jewish scoffers during apostolic times mocked the fact that Jesus did not return "soon."

    You agree with the scoffers that Jesus did not return "soon," instead of agreeing with the apostle Peter. . .and you even say
    Jesus gave a false prophecy.

    Yet God says false prophecies come only from false prophets, so according to God, you make Jesus to be a false prophet. . .which you deny, in a disagreement with God.

    However, Peter addresses the scoffers and you by pointing out their and your misunderstanding of "soon."
    "Soon" according to whom/what. . .God and eternity. . .or man and time?

    Peter says it will be "soon" according to God and eternity, where a thousand years on earth are like a day in eternity, and a day in eternity is like a thousand years on earth (2Pe 3:8).

    Jesus is not slow in keeping his promise (2Pe 3:9). . .his coming will be "soon" in terms of the realm from which he came and to which he returned.
    Last edited by smoky; 05-19-2017 at 01:28 PM.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehushuan View Post
    This was not a challenge, Dottie. You think too highly of yourself.
    I didn't mention me. But you do like to launch ad hominem attacks. What you said was like what was said by the said party. The similarity was striking.
    It was a straight forward honest question that anyone with half a brain should ask. I even qualified the various definitions of what others believe Jesus' teachings to be composed of, and what do I get? Certainly not an answer that conforms to this:

    (1Pe 3:15 KJV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
    That was not the question you asked. You did not even ask me what Jesus wants me to do. You asked how anyone can know. Asking for the reason for the hope within me is a different question altogether.
    But I'm sure you'll decide the question was disingenuous even though the one asking it (i.e. me) says it is not. Does dismissing my question help your conscience to deal with the fact that you provided no answer?
    As you see, that is not at all what I responded with. You did not ask that question that you now complain about. Ask me what you want to know and do not expect me to answer a question you did not ask.
    Well from your answer, they certainly couldn't find out from you.
    Well, have them ask me. And I gave the same instructions Jesus gave that work for everyone. Do you have a problem with that answer? If so, what?
    Still doesn't answer the question. What comprises Jesus' teachings? From your phrase, "his personal instructions," it would seem you hear a voice that gives you personal instruction. No? At least LynnCF is honest about this, even though it would seem the voice speaking to her doesn't understand the Greek language. How do you differentiate that voice from your own thoughts? And if such IS differentiable, how do you resolve the problems when both equally sincere people being "led" just cannot agree?
    I have heard personal instructions from God for decades. How I know it is God is the subject of books. God speaks Greek but not to me as it would be well, all Greek to me. Now I do not see examples here of those who claim God is speaking to them that differ from others. Do you have any specifics? Very few people claim all they believe is what they personally heard from God. I do not claim that either.
    I think you misunderstand the furor in the church that Paul caused. It's right there in Acts 21 & 22 if you'd care to read about it. This is why Paul argued tooth and nail, declaring from the rooftops that he too was just as valid an apostle as the 12. Why pen such a thing if it wasn't an issue? BTW, nothing much came of the 12, did it? Where are the epistles from Matthias? Or Andrew? Where are the acts of Lebbaeus Thaddaeus? Simon the Canaanite?
    Since the world is becoming more and more Christian, their missions were successful. But they were not western men and were not concerned with their own publicity or popularity. Do you want to talk more about this? I haven't the time right now and have to leave in a few minutes. But we could go into greater detail if you want.
    Ok, so you read the Bible and you read the Bible, but do you ever ask critical questions? Ones meant to deal with these deeper issues?
    I have asked critical questions since I was in my 20s. I seriously doubt the issues you might have thought about are as deep as the issues I have questioned about. The issues you raise are very superficial from my viewpoint. Kindergarten stuff. The issues I think about and search for logical answers are much deeper. The superficial ones I found answers to decades ago and have graduated to more complex ones.
    ------------------------
    "He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you. But to do justly..and to love mercy...and to walk humbly with your God."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehushuan View Post
    It would seem you can't even agree that the "Bible (as originally given)" doesn't even exist. Belief in that kind of nonexistent thing DOES border on the delusional. So if the Bible (as originally given) exists, then where is it? And if it doesn't, then such belief is worthless, because you have expressed belief in something that can be PROVED to not exist.
    Yehu, how many manuscripts do we have now? I think it's over 6000 for the NT, I'm not sure for the OT. Most people are convinced from comparing and analyzing those manuscripts that we can reconstruct the Greek scriptures to 99+ percent accuracy. We may never know EXACTLY in this life, but I believe what we have is very, very close.

    You may not, that's on you.

    But if nothing else, then I am least assuaged that you post you believe in the God that Paul made up.
    No, I believe that the scriptures Paul wrote are God-breathed.

    That is different from saying Paul made up his own version of God, what is what you have decided to believe.

    PS: The critical question, shroom, is "Why do you believe that?" You believe the book because the book tells you to believe the book? The book doesn't even say that.
    Read the book and note the places where the written scriptures are mentioned. I'll let you look them up.

    You're a fool to disregard the scriptures, Yehu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shroom View Post
    I do not believe that God literally "granted permission" to Satan to inflict Job, to kill his family, etc.
    So on the one hand you say you believe the Bible, and yet on the other hand have just stated that you don't.

    (Job 2:6-7 KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

    Just to clarify... you DON'T believe that what is stated in the above verse happened. (A yes or no would be greatly appreciated by all.) So... given your PERSONAL interpretation that such was poetic or ... hmmm... literary and or figurative in nature, then why in God's name wouldn't one also believe such to be true of this?

    (Luk 22:44 KJV) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

    Is it truly impossible for you to see that YOU shroom are picking and choosing (no matter the criteria) what is and is not literary and figurative? And since YOU are doing so, then how is it that YOU are not making up your own God?

    Quote Originally Posted by shroom View Post
    There is very little understanding of Satan in the OT. In the OT, pretty much everything, good or evil, is accredited to God. An "evil spirit from Yahweh" troubled Saul (1 Sam 16:14). Elijah thought God was responsible for the death of the woman's son (1 Ki 17:20). There are many examples. Not much was known about the devil in the OT, and the scriptures were written accordingly.
    Youi mean God Himself was unable to provide inspired enlightenment so that these people WOULD know more about the devil in the OT? Or will you play the inscrutable card? Ohh... God had his reasons that are unknowable to mere mortals.

    Quote Originally Posted by shroom View Post
    I believe that part of the reason the OT is written this way is that people were not equipped to handle the fact that they were in reality battling a powerful invisible enemy who was in control of the world they were living in. Very few people had holy spirit. There are no records in the OT of people casting out demons. There are no records revealing that people were wrestling against "principalities, powers, spiritual wickedness from on high". There are no records stating that the devil is in control of the world. These things are in the NT, not the OT. Since Pentecost, EVERY Christian has the gift of holy spirit, and is better equipped to deal with the enemy (assuming they know what they have..).
    Fair enough. At least such is internally consistent with your definitional framework. Even though it does contradict the NT itself.

    (Were the believers in Acts 19 Christians before Paul arrived? )

    Yehushuan
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke
    (One of wisest men I've known. RIP 3/5/17)

    Current ignore list: JimD, smoky, De Maria


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    The Protestants didn't convey any such thing.
    Tell that to the Catholics they killed in Ireland and the Pentecostals they killed in the south. Even Luther decided other reformers were dangerous and should be put down.
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke
    (One of wisest men I've known. RIP 3/5/17)

    Current ignore list: JimD, smoky, De Maria


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    Quote Originally Posted by smoky View Post
    Non-responsive. . .your interpretations of prophetic riddles enjoy no more certainty than mine.

    And keeping in mind, I interpret the first resurrection (Rev 20:4-6) to be the resurrection of the born again from spiritual death to eternal life at their re-birth and faith (if it is not the resurrection of Mt 27:52),

    where the immortal souls/spirits of those already beheaded for Jesus are reigning with Jesus (Rev 20:4-6) in heaven now (Eph 2:6),

    during the symbolic 1000 years (Rev 20:2-6) which is the church age

    when Satan is bound (2Pe 2:4; Ju 6; Lk 10:18-19; Rev 20:2-3).

    (I also note in the only passage in all of Scripture dealing with a millennial reign, there is no mention of Jews, Israel, Palestine, land or Jerusalem.)

    I interpret the second resurrection to be the general resurrection at the end of time,
    the first death to be physical death of the body, while
    the second death is eternal separation from God.

    Case in point regarding personal interpretation of prophetic riddles:

    Jesus said that he would return "soon."


    Jewish scoffers during apostolic times mocked the fact that Jesus did not return "soon."

    You agree with the scoffers that Jesus did not return "soon," instead of agreeing with the apostle Peter. . .and you even say
    Jesus gave a false prophecy.

    Yet God says false prophecies come only from false prophets, so according to God, you make Jesus to be a false prophet. . .which you deny, in a disagreement with God.

    However, Peter addresses the scoffers and you by pointing out their and your misunderstanding of "soon."
    "Soon" according to whom/what. . .God and eternity. . .or man and time?

    Peter says it will be "soon" according to God and eternity, where a thousand years on earth are like a day in eternity, and a day in eternity is like a thousand years on earth (2Pe 3:8).

    Jesus is not slow in keeping his promise (2Pe 3:9). . .his coming will be "soon" in terms of the realm from which he came and to which he returned.
    Face it, smoky. We will not agree on several major biblical doctrines in this life. Plus, it's tiresome responding to a robot... Sorry, but that's how you come across to me at times.

    I believe Jesus Christ is the human messiah, and not part of a "triune Godhead".
    I believe the dead are dead, and will not live again until one of the upcoming resurrections.

    My eschatological views in chronological order:
    1) Jesus Christ will appear and gather the Christian church to himself. This will include both dead and living Christians. This will end Christianity, the administration of grace.
    2) the 7 year trib will happen on this earth. Many people will come to believe, but it will be an awful time.
    3) At the end of the trib, Jesus Christ will return to fight Armageddon. He will win....
    4) the sheep and goat judgment will occur. This will be for people who make it alive through the trib. This judgment will determine whether they will be allowed into the kingdom or not.
    5) somewhere close to this, the resurrection of the just will occur. This is when all OT believers, and those killed for their faith during the trib will be raised from the dead immortal.
    6) He will set up the millennial kingdom, which will last 1000 years. Jesus Christ will be ruling the world from Jerusalem. Satan will be bound. It will be Paradise on earth, a wonderful place to be.
    7) At the end of the 1000 years, Satan will be released and be able to convince a great number of people to rebel against Christ.
    8) God will destroy them with fire from heaven.
    9) the "second" resurrection will occur, where everyone not previously raised will be resurrected and judged. Those found wanting will be destroyed permanently.
    10 The third, new heaven and earth will begin, with new Jerusalem descending to earth. We will live with God and Jesus Christ forever.

    This is how I believe things will play out. I hold to a dispensational view of scripture. Since you do not, we will not agree.

    I believe we may see Jesus Christ returning to gather the Christian church soon, that there is a very good chance I'll live to see it (I'm 64). We'll see. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.

    Scripture can be provided for all of the above. I wrote this in a hurry and did not look up the references. If you want them, let me know.

    I have a good idea that your response to this post will be "non-responsive". So be it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    Imagine a parent trying to comfort their child who is striking them in the face with their fist instead of crying on their shoulder. Do you get the picture as to why comfort is impossible to receive?
    I don't need to imagine, Dottie. I raised four children. Then again, you didn't use the word "receive" Dottie, you used the word "experienced". You truly think that the experience of God comforting someone could be thwarted by a mere mortal? Even as a human parent I just needed persistence in love, and the fist would vanish soon enough.

    However I do remember the words of Jesus, but I hardly think they mean God stops trying. That God stops loving people who hate him. Then God Himself couldn't even live up to his own command, "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (Mat 5:44 KJV)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    Love means you let someone remain in their chosen state. The alternative is tyranny, not love.
    You mean like Jesus NOT letting Paul remain in his chosen state to kill Christians? Interesting. Weird, but interesting. I think I'll conclude that you just didn't think that statement through very well, or else God in his Love for us would have just let it remain and the ministry of Jesus wouldn't have been needed.

    Yehu
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke
    (One of wisest men I've known. RIP 3/5/17)

    Current ignore list: JimD, smoky, De Maria


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    Quote Originally Posted by shroom View Post
    Yehu, how many manuscripts do we have now? I think it's over 6000 for the NT, I'm not sure for the OT. Most people are convinced from comparing and analyzing those manuscripts that we can reconstruct the Greek scriptures to 99+ percent accuracy. We may never know EXACTLY in this life, but I believe what we have is very, very close.

    You may not, that's on you.


    No, I believe that the scriptures Paul wrote are God-breathed.

    That is different from saying Paul made up his own version of God, what is what you have decided to believe.


    Read the book and note the places where the written scriptures are mentioned. I'll let you look them up.

    You're a fool
    to disregard the scriptures, Yehu.
    Dear shroom,
    You guys kind of play with fire. Mt 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool', shall be guilty enough to go into the hell of fire".

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