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Thread: Asking JWs to describe the "a god" they insist is there

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBax View Post
    I didn't lie about the judges. You simply do not accept what I said, pretending it nullifies what Ps 82:6.
    The "they" being addressed are not judges. Sorry but they aren't. You refuse to admit the word judges is not used those regarding them.
    If it wasn't the judges, then who were they? You indicated you do not know. Well read the context. If you cannot figure it out, then you have no business trying to nullify what you do not understand.
    Not judges. Does not say judges. Maybe you think they were judges because only judges are supposed to care about justice. Ancient Israel was as a people given commands to do was is in Psalm 82. The whole nation. People these days are often not concerned about injustice in their communities. That is the business of law enforcement. The common man need not bother. All of the Israelies were told to bother about it and the Christians took that seriously and cared for orphans and widows and the weak. They did not see that as the job of judges. Perhaps that is how you see this as a judge job description. It was not.
    Last edited by Dottie; 05-19-2017 at 09:50 AM.
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    "He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you. But to do justly..and to love mercy...and to walk humbly with your God."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TBax View Post
    Means Jesus will have accomplished his assignment, and willingly hands the kingdom over to his God and Father.
    It can't mean that my friend because:

    "The heavens are Thine, the earth also is Thine. As for the world and the fulness thereof, Thou hast founded them." Ps.89:11

    "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein*is." Deut.10:14

    You're missing Pauls' point.

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    Are you a god?
    No.


    What makes you different than Jesus?
    Jesus was perfect, sinless, and given great authority by God. Was able to give his life for mankind, so that we can live.


    The #13 says things that have been shown to be untrue. Men are not called gods in the Bible. Psalm 82 is the only reference and it might be so but these are not those in authority.
    If you showed it to be untrue, who are these ones then? You said you don't know, so you showed nothing to be untrue.

    They are simple the "they" you mentioned above. No kings or judges or anyone over anyone. So the explanation you gave does not match scripture at all. Not anywhere.
    And yet they judge according to the context. And yet they die like other princes according to the context.

    Number 23 is pretty the same. Full of claims that are not true. Angels are not calls "gods" by God. Angels are often called messengers and the same word is used for human messenegers. What you want to do is this.
    Yet the Hebrew word Elohim, gods, was used for the angels. You are using another red herring to divert the point that they are called gods, in God's own word.

    Jesus was just a man or a god.
    He was both as showed.

    But men are called gods
    Can be. Jesus brought this very point out as well, and added God's word cannot be nullified. But you do your best to nullify it.
    Angels are called gods.
    Look up the Hebrew word used at Ps 8:5.
    But God is called god too.
    In a greater sense yes. The only one who is almighty.
    Demons are also called gods.
    Did I ever say that? However Satan is called the god of this system of things.

    I want to ask is there any creatures besides bugs, birds and animals that are not called gods? If everyone is a god, no one is a god.
    And to round out your logical fallacies, there is a nice straw man.
    (Might need to think about that one.) All of this to render Jesus not the Son of God.
    No JW ever said Jesus is not the Son of God. Another false accusation.

    You know, you probably did not think about the Cor scripture much but used it from a JW site. What you probably did not see and I just saw it was this:

    First the verse, "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
    No, I use it all the time. And am amazed that people refuse to acknowledge what it directly says. There is absolutely no trinity there. Period.
    How is it you do not know that JW believe all other things were created through Jesus?

    All things came through ...one God and all things came through Jesus Christ.
    This makes Jesus Christ God.
    No. God delivered Israel from Egypt through Moses. That didn't make Moses God did it?
    Agape,
    TBax

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    Quote Originally Posted by pastor2022 View Post


    So the real question is, Who are the "enemies" of Jehovah? According to JWs, it would be anyone outside of the org. but especially anyone in "Christendom."
    Where did this sentence come from P2022? From your own originality?
    Do you believe the things you quoted were to apply to those JW preach to, in other word we can lie to get them into our organization? Is that what you think it was saying?
    Agape,
    TBax

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    Quote Originally Posted by TBax View Post
    Dottie, you are purposely missing the point by focusing on your red herring. You know very well these ones are called gods. But you are pretending that since your refusal to accept the context that these are "judges", that you do not know who they are, thus there is no one called gods. That is not how proper reasoning works.

    It is a false argument, but typical of those who refuse the truth. Miss the point to focus on something other then what is pertinant to the discussion.
    You really don't want to look at the fact that the Bible does not call judges or kings or those in authority "gods." There is no indication that those addressed in Ps 82 are any of that. None. I asked for verses were judges are called "gods" by anyone and there are none. I asked where kings or those in authority are called gods. No response. So as a last resort you attack me for seeing the words "judges" or "kings" or "those in authority" are not mentioned.

    You probably do not know that God servely judged Isreal, the whole nation for those things mentioned. He did not judge the judges alone. Why not? Because the whole of the nation was to care for the weak, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    There is mutual obedience and submission.
    That's true sis, because God is faithful to His word, but Paul is relating "submission", being "put under", "subdued", to the resurrection and that's the key to properly understanding Pauls' teaching.

    He's not saying, "When the dead are raised, Jesus will be in a lower position." He's saying, "When the dead are raised, all will be manifested as they truly were and will see Jesus for Who He truly is."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jig View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TBax
    Means Jesus will have accomplished his assignment, and willingly hands the kingdom over to his God and Father.
    It can't mean that my friend because:

    "The heavens are Thine, the earth also is Thine. As for the world and the fulness thereof, Thou hast founded them." Ps.89:11

    "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein*is." Deut.10:14

    You're missing Pauls' point.
    Do you believe Jesus rules as king of God's kingdom for the 1,000 years? Do you believe God gave Jesus this assignment? Do you not believe 1 Cor 15:24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power ?
    Agape,
    TBax

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    You really don't want to look at the fact that the Bible does not call judges or kings or those in authority "gods."
    The fact is they are called gods. You are doing your best to avoid that point.



    There is no indication that those addressed in Ps 82 are any of that. None. I asked for verses were judges are called "gods" by anyone and there are none.
    Well it does say it. Whether you see it or not is a different story.

    Ps 82:God takes his place in the divine assembly;
    In the middle of the gods he judges:
    2 “How long will you continue to judge with injustice
    And show partiality to the wicked? (Selah)


    Lev 19:15 “‘You must not be unjust in your judgment. You must not show partiality to the poor or show preference to the rich. With justice you should judge your fellow man.



    Deut 1:16 “At that time I instructed your judges, ‘When you hear a case between your brothers, you are to judge with righteousness between a man and his brother or a foreign resident. 17 You must not be partial in judgment. You should hear the small one the same as the great one. You must not become intimidated by men, for the judgment belongs to God; and if a case is too difficult for you, you should present it to me, and I will hear it.’


    Deut 16:18 “You should appoint judges and officers for each tribe in all the cities that Jehovah your God is giving you, and they must judge the people with righteous judgment. 19 You must not pervert justice, show partiality, or accept a bribe, for the bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and distorts the words of the righteous. 20 Justice—justice you should pursue, so that you may keep living and take possession of the land that Jehovah your God is giving you.

    2 Chron 19:6 And he said to the judges: “Pay attention to what you are doing, for you do not judge for man but for Jehovah, and he is with you when you pass judgment. 7 Now let the fear of Jehovah be upon you. Be careful about what you do, for with Jehovah our God there is no injustice, no partiality, no bribe-taking.”

    Ps 82: 6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,
    All of you are sons of the Most High.
    7 But you will die just as men do;
    And like any other prince you will fall!’”



    Ps 49:12 But man, although honored, will not remain;
    He is no better than the beasts that perish.



    Agape,
    TBax

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    Quote Originally Posted by TBax View Post
    Where did this sentence come from P2022? From your own originality?
    Do you believe the things you quoted were to apply to those JW preach to, in other word we can lie to get them into our organization? Is that what you think it was saying?
    Pretty much. There are those the JWs can designate (no criteria given so whatever) who do not deserve the truth. Ergo, you can weasle around the truth which is precisely what you are doing. No where does the Bible call judges, kings, those in authority "gods." No where. I ask where and you have no examples. Ergo, you weasle around this fact and zero in on one lone chapter in Psalms where none of the above are mentioned. You do not admit this. I can only assume that you have deemed me one of those who do not deserve the truth. Why not? The GB gives you full sanction to do so. You are not the first JW to behave this way. Anyone who deals with JWs in discussion will find this same behavior. This is what I have experienced to be the case in talking with JWs. You do not get a straight answer. They dance around matters. They do exactly as described in the JW publication. It describes the behaviour very nicely.
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    "He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you. But to do justly..and to love mercy...and to walk humbly with your God."

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  11. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBax View Post
    The fact is they are called gods. You are doing your best to avoid that point.
    Do you realize that the "they" in the Psalm are the Elohim? It says in Hebrew the "Elohim." THe Elohim are not men. You asked who "they" are? They are the Elohim.

    Deut 1:16 “At that time I instructed your judges, ‘When you hear a case between your brothers, you are to judge with righteousness between a man and his brother or a foreign resident. 17 You must not be partial in judgment. You should hear the small one the same as the great one. You must not become intimidated by men, for the judgment belongs to God; and if a case is too difficult for you, you should present it to me, and I will hear it.’
    Where is the word "gods" in there?
    [COLOR=#ff0000]Deut 16:18 “You should appoint judges and officers for each tribe in all the cities that Jehovah your God is giving you, and they must judge the people with righteous judgment. 19 You must not pervert justice, show partiality, or accept a bribe, for the bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and distorts the words of the righteous. 20 Justice—justice you should pursue, so that you may keep living and take possession of the land that Jehovah your God is giving you.
    Where is the word "god" in there?
    2 Chron 19:6 And he said to the judges: “Pay attention to what you are doing, for you do not judge for man but for Jehovah, and he is with you when you pass judgment. 7 Now let the fear of Jehovah be upon you. Be careful about what you do, for with Jehovah our God there is no injustice, no partiality, no bribe-taking.”
    Where is the word "you are gods" in there?
    Ps 82: 6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,
    All of you are sons of the Most High.
    7 But you will die just as men do;
    And like any other prince you will fall!’”

    That "you" are the Elohim.
    Ps 49:12 But man, although honored, will not remain;
    He is no better than the beasts that perish.
    No Elohim there. The word is related to adam.

    Since Jesus was the Son of God....He was Elohim or at least Bene hā-’ĕ-lō-hîm. He was Elohim hence the good reference to Ps 82 where God is calling the Elohim, gods. These are not men. Which makes sense since he says you shall die like men. That makes no sense if all men die like men. It is no warning or threat.
    ------------------------
    "He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you. But to do justly..and to love mercy...and to walk humbly with your God."

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