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Thread: What do creationists say about "Old Tjikko"?

  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrophile View Post
    You could try http://www.space.com/24054-how-old-is-the-universe.html, the 'WMAP - Age of the Universe' site - https://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html, or the Hubble site, http://www.hubblesite.org/news/12-cosmology. If you are willing to read a book, I can recommend John Gribbin's books The Birth of Time (Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1999) and 13.8: The quest to find the true age of the universe and the theory of everything (Icon Books Ltd., 2015). In addition, Lonely Hearts of the Cosmos by Dennis Overbye (Harper Collins, New York, 1991) gives a detailed description of the early work on the measurement of the size and age of the universe.
    Well I can say I haven't read these particular books, but I have read several tomes on the calculating the age of the universe. Both creationists and evolutionists have serious problems with space/time. After parallax , measuring distance/tine in space becomes fraught with uncertainty and lack of validating calculations.

    One very plausible solution was drawn up by Bernhard Reiman in the last century. Found in the article linked here.

    http://www.icr.org/article/starlight-age-universe/

  2. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolidad View Post
    See thast is where you use a wrong understanding of faith. Real biblical Faith is based on evidence and truth and not a hope so thing. See I know Jesus exists just like you know your family and car exists.



    And see for all these, that is why I became a follower of Jesus Christ.



    See that is because you make false equivalences and reduce it two 2 false conclusions.



    To this I can only say:





    See trying to force the answer into two wrong conclusions! When the physical sciences (astronomy, geology etc.) start spouting of when and how things came into existence via evolution yes they are wrong, but otherwise they do terrific work. and no matter how many times you spout saying the sciences can't exist without TOE and BB doesn't make that statement true at all!



    Well I separated them cuz you evos kept whining at me that the BB had nothing to do with evolution. Now you say they do--please make up your mind!

    I know the philosophy is all interconnected- it is a part of a secular worldview oppossed to Christianity.



    It supports "micro" evolution which is not evolution the former sense of the word. Micro is simply just variation and speciation not through mutation but more of reshuffling of existing genetic material. Mendel Proved that so much they named a law of science after him.

    What is the fallacy? We have no evidence that the evolutions occurred! We have hypotheses and opinions but not conclusions based on evidence. And I think you know that as well!

    We have never demonstrated that super heated hydrogen and helium cooled and formed nickel, copper, gold, silver and all the other elements on the periodic table.

    We have never witnessed a star being born. We Have Seen stars die but not born.

    We have never seen nor demonstrated non life become life!

    We have never seen one genre change to another genre, phyla order family or kingdom or domain through chance, random undesigned mutations +time.

    As we learn more of genetics and DNA and the inner workings of a cell- the more TOE becomes a hypotheses in crisis. Darwin postulated TOE based on the variations of beaks he saw in finches on the galapagos. He then extrapolated that backwards to come up with from goo to you by way of the zoo.

    After 150+ years of research and investigation and trillions spent looking- the missing links (transitionals that would validate TOE) are still missing.



    Well for someone who just said they are sure they don't know- you certainly seem to think you know the mind and heart of billions of people who have given their lives to Christ for nearly 2000 years and served Him with great joy, peace, contentment and love, even when people just like your self were putting people like me to death with some of the most horrendous tortures designed.
    Amazing, you're not interested in any truth or evidence. Your manic is only to go the distance. Do you even look at what has been posted? Do you even understand it? I do have evidence to support the existence of my car and my family. What is your evidence to support any supernatural event mentioned in the Bible? PROVE IT! Do you agree that the more confidence you have, the less faith you need? Do you agree that the more knowledge you have, the less belief you need? These points you avoided, ignored, or deflected. Also the same with my Biblical quote. Are you saying that if you don't have the knowledge to answer the question, that you will NOT BE limited in how to answer the question correctly? That makes no sense at all. "Please tell me, "Why is the sky Blue"? In fact he may be left with only two options, "God did it", or "Science doesn't know either, so God did it". To which you answer, "See that is because you make false equivalences and reduce it two 2 false conclusions". Just another silly and incorrect statement, to avoid answering a question that you don't have a clue about. Maybe I should also have added, avoid or deflect at all cost. Understandably, since most creationist are not too bright(other copying and pasting). What does Evolution have to do with the BB? Nothing! More creation nonsense. Are you so paranoid that you just make things up? There is no scientific discipline that opposes Christianity. Science simply doesn't care about superstitions and myths.

    The only reason you support micro-evolution is because your masters tell you to. Haven't you figured it out that macro-evolution is made up of a series of micro-evolution? I'm anxious to hear your creative spin on this. I'll ask again, you stated that the ToE is a fallacy, what is that fallacy? That gibberish of a response was meaningless. Regarding how elements are formed, this is embarrassing. All elements up to iron were created in the cores of suns. Elements above iron were created in a super nova. These element are created through fusion. Elements with atomic numbers greater than 92, were created in reactors or artificially in cyclotron experiments. Did you just think that God did it? Stop making more stupid statements. We have seen stars at every stage of development, including its birth. http://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover...-massive-star/ . How was Adam made? Was it from non-life? Or do I feel a "begging the question" fallacy about to start. I've stated before so listen again. Since there was NO LIFE before there WAS LIFE, then LIFE must have come from NO LIFE. I personally don't know the answer, but you're free to make-up anything you like. The ToE is not an hypothesis, it is a Theory. Please learn the difference. Merely asserting it don't make it so. Are you silly enough to think that trillions of dollars was spent ONLY on looking for transitional fossils(all fossils are transitional)? Most genetic, and cellular evidence supports and is consistent with the ToE. Or was this just another creationist misrepresentation?

    You have definitely confirmed my apprehensions by not addressing my comments. You seek self-importance and a sense of belonging. This herding instinct is very powerful for insecure and weak personalities. This is why Religious groups are so easy to control. It takes a special human quality to maintain and accept the essence of oneself. To live, grow, procreate, and mature in our society, is what nature expects from each of us. We are all unique individuals, and will pass this uniqueness onto our offspring. The odds of our existence, after billions of years of evolution, to exist at this time, on this planet, survive birth and live to adulthood, are all astronomical. And how do you choose to use this gift of life? In Pius servitude to a religiosity, that demands obedience to the sacred tenets of a foreign Book of superstitions and myths. No new information is created, and no new knowledge will be gained. As I stated before, no thank you! I think those people who put Christians to death, were politically or ideologically motivated(I do not condone their actions). Those Christians that put the many innocent to death always claimed that God was on their side(religiously motivated). Considering that more than a million people were tortured and killed in the Bible alone, you are in no position to play the victim. And lets not even begin with those killed in the inquisition and the Crusades. Don

  3. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolidad View Post
    Is that wiki site the best you got? The ant has remained an Ant for supposedly 90 million years? so you are saying it transitioned from an ant to an ant? I can accept that silly definition.



    A squid remains a squid after 160 million years??????????????


    Extinct and could be related to octupi, squid and cuttlefish (how do they know???????????????)

    If this is your evidence- try harder.
    Are you saying that the only thing you understood on the site , was that an ant remained an ant? And that a Squid remained a squid? Typical creation selective filtered reading. Knowledge is not a game, it is opened to all that seek enlightenment. But your avoidance game of selective self-serving denial, will always be the sanctuary for the terminally and willfully ignorant. What do you think squids and ants were, before they were squids and ants? Is it possible that a near-squid male bumped ugly with a near-squid female and produce a new nearer squid baby? Any ideas? Or is it that God did it all? I don't expect you to listen to anything that even resembles rational thought. All you need is your usual dose of simplicity, and all the questions the plague mankind, will now seem so obvious. You ignored the question about transitional fossils(all fossils are transitional). You ignored defending your accusation that scientific claims are not vetted. You didn't even demonstrate how to quantify intelligence and complexity. If you are saying that the BB didn't occur, prove it! What do you know that the vast majority of scientist don't know? You are nothing more than white noise, full of creation platitudes and half-truths. There are no arguments that you have presented, that wasn't dripping in logical fallacies.

    If you believe that the Wizard of Oz created all of reality, that is your Belief. But don't try to rationalize your belief scientifically, to any rational objective thinking person. Just keep it to yourself. Don

  4. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolidad View Post
    See thast is where you use a wrong understanding of faith. Real biblical Faith is based on evidence and truth and not a hope so thing. See I know Jesus exists just like you know your family and car exists.
    Delusional!
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can also make you commit atrocities

    - Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    Delusional!
    We've seen creo- ideas of what constitutes evidence, truth, and understanding,
    as applied to science. We know what they hope is so, and how little credibility is in any of it.

  6. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly Enlightened View Post
    Are you saying that the only thing you understood on the site , was that an ant remained an ant? And that a Squid remained a squid? Don
    Hey, after more than a hundred years, an airplane is still and airplane, a car is still a car.

    That proves that there is no change! In creothink.

    And look at forks!! How long have they been around.

    Why haven't they changed into something else?

    (Hint for the terminally stupid: They dont need to be something else. The fork design
    can be refined or specialized, but the fork performs its role admirably. There is a role for a fork.

    Squid are kinda like that. So are cockroaches.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolidad View Post
    When an organization is tax exempt- it means they do not give the govt. money. It does not mean that they get govt. money. Remember govt. only gets money to give away by first taking it from someone who worked for it.
    You really love to twist facts lol. Churches aren't paying their way so the rest of us have to pay our share as well as theirs. You feel good footing the bill for Scientology? Me either nor do I like footing the bill for Baptists, JW's, Calvinists or Catholics. Being tax exempt can be far more advantageous than being Government funded.

    As for churches not knowingwith 100% certainty? That is only because of the age we live in and the fact many preachers have succumbed to the seduction of "science falsely so called".
    Read what I actually wrote.
    And the officer said, "better get a lawyer son, better get a real good one".

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    Quote Originally Posted by John53 View Post
    You really love to twist facts lol. Churches aren't paying their way so the rest of us have to pay our share as well as theirs. You feel good footing the bill for Scientology? Me either nor do I like footing the bill for Baptists, JW's, Calvinists or Catholics. Being tax exempt can be far more advantageous than being Government funded.



    Read what I actually wrote.
    Show me a creogument that is not based on a misrepresentation, and I will show you one that is pure fabrication.

  9. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolidad View Post
    there is evidence in every continent and every country of a massive flood...
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen T-B View Post
    since you know so much, Noli, please tell us where is the evidence in England of a flood which covered the entire land mass all at the same time and just 4,000 years ago? And ditto France. And ditto Italy. And ditto the Indian sub-continent. And ditto Australia.
    So, instead of requiring that I spend a day or two ploughing through the pseudo-science churned out by your creationist authors, why not just answer that question I asked.

    Here it is again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen T-B View Post
    ... since you know so much, Noli, please tell us where is the evidence in England of a flood which covered the entire land mass all at the same time and just 4,000 years ago? And ditto France. And ditto Italy. And ditto the Indian sub-continent. And ditto Australia.
    "True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it."Karl K. Popper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen T-B View Post
    So, instead of requiring that I spend a day or two ploughing through the pseudo-science churned out by your creationist authors, why not just answer that question I asked.

    Here it is again:
    There is no "flood layer" or stratum, or anything else one wants to call it.
    It just is not there.

    Of course, the creos will say yes it is. And that it is those secular humanist evo conspirators who hide or wont admit the evidence.




    Let me amend this..

    "Show me a creogument that is not based on a misrepresentation, and I will show you one that is pure fabrication."

    so I can add "or a gish of creosite links".

    A list of ICR links could not be more impressive it it went on for pages. Kind of like all the witnesses to the gold books of Mormon that Joseph Smith found..

    ....which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

    Christian Whitmer

    Jacob Whitmer

    Peter Whitmer, Jun.

    John Whitmer

    Hiram Page

    Joseph Smith, Sen.

    Hyrum Smith

    Samuel H. Smith


    We could not be more convinced if they were ALL named "Smith"!

    It is like ICR that way. You see the name, you cannot help but be convinced, of something.

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