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Thread: Why Jesus Didn't Stay Dead

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    Post Why Jesus Didn't Stay Dead

    -
    None of the Old Testament's sacrifices were restored to life, and in ;point of fact, quite a few of them were incinerated. Pieces and parts of some were even set aside to be eaten as sustenance for the Levitical priests and their families.

    So, if the OT's sacrifices could obtain the mercy of God without bringing them back to life, why then wouldn't a dead Jesus be just as effective as a living Jesus?

    The problem with previous stay-dead modes of sacrifice is that they couldn't expunge the people's personnel files; and those files are on track to be reviewed at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where people will be thoroughly vetted for citizenship in the new cosmos depicted in the 21st chapter of Revelation.

    If the records show that certain people are essentially undesirable --i.e. capable of terrible things, especially dishonesty --then they will be denied immigration to the new heavens, the new earth, and the holy city.

    Christ's crucified body was restored to life in order to make it possible for God to expunge people's records.

    Rom 4:25 . . He was handed over for our transgressions, and was raised for our justification.

    The koiné Greek word for "justification" is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to regard as innocent.

    In other words; Christ's crucifixion was sufficient to obtain forgiveness for people's sins; but his crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to make it possible for people to obtain an acquittal.

    An acquittal can be defined as exoneration; viz: an adjudication of innocence, which is normally granted when there is insufficient evidence to convict. In other words: by means of Christ's resurrection, God was able to cook the books so that it appears people never did anything bad. On the surface; this looks very unethical, but from God's perspective it's all on the up and up.

    This is a serious issue under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The covenant's sacrifices obtained forgiveness for the people, but the sacrifices did not, and could not, obtain them exoneration. No, a record of their disobedience remained on the books, hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles. Out ahead, at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, those books will be opened for review.

    Q: Don't Catholics obtain exoneration when they go to confession?

    A: The scope of the Roman church's reconciliatory process is somewhat limited. It's primarily designed for absolution (1John 1:9) i.e. while it forgives a sinner's debt to God's law, and cleanses what is sometimes called the stain of sin, it does nothing to expunge the sinner's record.

    Justification, on the other hand, as per the koiné Greek word dikaioo, completely deletes the offender's criminal history; i.e. dikaioo wipes their records so clean and efficiently that there is nothing left that can in any way be used to prove that the sinner has ever been anything less than 100% innocent.

    Now, the advantage of the kind of justification I'm talking about is that sinners need obtain it only once because from thence, God stops keeping records on them.

    2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them

    The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which means to take an inventory.

    Rom 4:8 . . Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record.

    /
    Last edited by Niyoe'es:ah; 04-17-2017 at 07:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niyoe'es:ah View Post
    [font=verdana]-
    None of the Old Testament's sacrifices were restored to life,....
    Because they were only signs, pointing to the true Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    Colossians 2:17New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

    17 These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niyoe'es:ah View Post
    -
    None of the Old Testament's sacrifices were restored to life, and in ;point of fact, quite a few of them were incinerated. Pieces and parts of some were even set aside to be eaten as sustenance for the Levitical priests and their families.

    So, if the OT's sacrifices could obtain the mercy of God without bringing them back to life, why then wouldn't a dead Jesus be just as effective as a living Jesus?

    The problem with previous stay-dead modes of sacrifice is that they couldn't expunge the people's personnel files; and those files are on track to be reviewed at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where people will be thoroughly vetted for citizenship in the new cosmos depicted in the 21st chapter of Revelation.

    If the records show that certain people are essentially undesirable --i.e. capable of terrible things, especially dishonesty --then they will be denied immigration to the new heavens, the new earth, and the holy city.

    Christ's crucified body was restored to life in order to make it possible for God to expunge people's records.

    Rom 4:25 . . He was handed over for our transgressions, and was raised for our justification.

    The koiné Greek word for "justification" is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to regard as innocent.

    In other words; Christ's crucifixion was sufficient to obtain forgiveness for people's sins; but his crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to make it possible for people to obtain an acquittal.

    An acquittal can be defined as exoneration; viz: an adjudication of innocence, which is normally granted when there is insufficient evidence to convict. In other words: by means of Christ's resurrection, God was able to cook the books so that it appears people never did anything bad. On the surface; this looks very unethical, but from God's perspective it's all on the up and up.

    This is a serious issue under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The covenant's sacrifices obtained forgiveness for the people, but the sacrifices did not, and could not, obtain them exoneration. No, a record of their disobedience remained on the books, hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles. Out ahead, at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, those books will be opened for review.

    Q: Don't Catholics obtain exoneration when they go to confession?

    A: The scope of the Roman church's reconciliatory process is somewhat limited. It's primarily designed for absolution (1John 1:9) i.e. while it forgives a sinner's debt to God's law, and cleanses what is sometimes called the stain of sin, it does nothing to expunge the sinner's record.

    Justification, on the other hand, as per the koiné Greek word dikaioo, completely deletes the offender's criminal history; i.e. dikaioo wipes their records so clean and efficiently that there is nothing left that can in any way be used to prove that the sinner has ever been anything less than 100% innocent.

    Now, the advantage of the kind of justification I'm talking about is that sinners need obtain it only once because from thence, God stops keeping records on them.

    2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them

    The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which means to take an inventory.

    Rom 4:8 . . Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record./
    What is lacking in this Protestant view of forgiveness is the acknowledgement of the damage done by sin.
    For example, if you break a window and you are forgiven - the window remains broken and in need of repair.
    If you are promiscuous and contract HIV and later repent of your former way of life - guess what?? You STILL have HIV.

    David repented for what he did to Uriah and god forgave him - but the sword never left his household.

    There is temporal punishment for the damage done by sin - even though we are forgiven. Jesus points to this fact when He says in Matt. 12:32, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come, which indicates that there is purification after death for some.

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    Post Re: Why Jesus Didn't Stay Dead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agape View Post
    What is lacking in this Protestant view of forgiveness is yada, yada, yada, etc.
    The focus of post #1 isn't upon forgiveness, the focus is upon exoneration.

    In a nutshell, according to Rom 4:25, Christ's resurrection made it possible for God to regard me innocent of any and all wrongdoing so that I will never be subpoenaed to face justice at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20;11-15.

    Rom 8:33 . . Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

    The Greek word for "justifies" is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to regard as innocent. In other words: Rom 4:25 and Rom 8:33 are saying that the reason I won't be subpoenaed to face justice at the great white throne event is because there is no longer anything on the books for which I must answer; nor will there ever again be anything on the books for which I must answer.

    2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them

    The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which means to take an inventory.

    Now as to David :

    Though he was forgiven for the capital crimes of adultery and premeditated murder, David wasn't exonerated of those crimes until Christ was crucified and risen from the dead. (Rom 3:23-26).

    The lesson is: Forgiveness alone as per 1John 1:9 isn't enough to get people into heaven because God would still be holding their records against them, like a pardoned felon who gets turned down for a job because of his criminal record. If people fail to get their records expunged they will be hauled before the great white throne from whence no one goes to heaven-- all face a mode of retribution akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

    /
    Last edited by Niyoe'es:ah; 04-18-2017 at 01:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niyoe'es:ah View Post
    -


    The focus of post #1 isn't upon forgiveness, the focus is upon exoneration.

    In a nutshell, according to Rom 4:25, Christ's resurrection made it possible for God to regard me innocent of any and all wrongdoing so that I will never be subpoenaed to face justice at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20;11-15.

    Rom 8:33 . . Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

    The Greek word for "justifies" is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to regard as innocent. In other words: Rom 4:25 and Rom 8:33 are saying that the reason I won't be subpoenaed to face justice at the great white throne event is because there is no longer anything on the books for which I must answer; nor will there ever again be anything on the books for which I must answer.

    2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them

    The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which means to take an inventory.

    Now as to David :

    Though he was forgiven for the capital crimes of adultery and premeditated murder, David wasn't exonerated of those crimes until Christ was crucified and risen from the dead. (Rom 3:23-26).

    The lesson is: Forgiveness alone as per 1John 1:9 isn't enough to get people into heaven because God would still be holding their records against them, like a pardoned felon who gets turned down for a job because of his criminal record. If people fail to get their records expunged they will be hauled before the great white throne from whence no one goes to heaven-- all face a mode of retribution akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron. /
    Your statement in red is precisely why there is a final purgation before entering Heaven. Since Rev. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification is necessary for many before entering heaven.

    We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

    a)
    This isn't talking about Heaven because there is no suffering in Heaven.
    b) This isn't talking about Hell because the person is eventually saved.
    c) This is speaking about a THIRD state - a state of final purification.

    Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

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    Post Re: Why Jesus Didn't Stay Dead

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    The records spoken of in post #1 are criminal records. The records spoken of in 1Cor 3:5-15 and 2Cor 5:8-10 are service records.

    According to Rom 4:8, Rom 4:25, Rom 8:33, and 2Cor 5:19 the concept of a so-called "final purgation" usurps the God-given purpose of Christ's resurrection.

    /
    Last edited by Niyoe'es:ah; 04-18-2017 at 06:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niyoe'es:ah View Post
    -
    The records spoken of in post #1 are criminal records. The records spoken of in 1Cor 3:5-15 and 2Cor 5:8-10 are service records.

    According to Rom 4:8, Rom 4:25, Rom 8:33, and 2Cor 5:19 the concept of a so-called "final purgation" usurps the God-given purpose of Christ's resurrection.
    No - if anything, it buttresses the purpose of Christ's sacrifice and Resurrection.
    As C.S. Lewis quipped - "The mercy of God demands Purgatory."

    He said this because of the obvious problem we have: We are NOT perfect.
    Rev. 21:27 states that NOTHING unclean or imperfect can enter Heaven and therein lies the logic of Lewis's quote.

    NOBODY gets to sneak into Heaven, past God because you are incognito - not even Luther's "snow-covered dunghills" . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agape View Post
    What is lacking in this Protestant view of forgiveness is the acknowledgement of the damage done by sin.
    For example, if you break a window and you are forgiven - the window remains broken and in need of repair.
    If you are promiscuous and contract HIV and later repent of your former way of life - guess what?? You STILL have HIV.

    David repented for what he did to Uriah and god forgave him - but the sword never left his household.

    There is temporal punishment for the damage done by sin - even though we are forgiven. Jesus points to this fact when He says in Matt. 12:32, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come, which indicates that there is purification after death for some.
    You are simply speaking of the consequences of sin, forgiveness is about guilt, not sin's consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agape View Post
    No - if anything, it buttresses the purpose of Christ's sacrifice and Resurrection.
    As C.S. Lewis quipped - "The mercy of God demands Purgatory."
    Yes. . .Lewis' faith was based in human reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smoky View Post
    Yes. . .Lewis' faith was based in human reason.
    On the contrary, it is the Wisdom of God. God knew that men could not overcome sin. Thus, He prepared for us a place where He would cleanse us of all sin so that no man could boast.

    1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

    Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

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