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    Default Early Christian history

    I studied this years ago but thought it appropriate to bring up today given the season.

    Now Eutychius of Alexandria was the Melkite patriarch of Alexandria in the 10th century AD and wrote his Annals in Arabic. (Patrologiae Graeca 111) It was translated into Latin in the 17th century by Edward Pococke; and Migne has reprinted Pococke’s translation.

    The passage does, of course, appear in Bartolomeo Pirone’s modern Italian translation of the Annals. Rather than translate Pococke’s Latin, based on who knows what text, let’s look at Pirone’s Italian, chapter 11, section 20, p.203:

    20. The King Constantine gave orders that no Jew should live in Jerusalem or pass through it, and he also ordered to put to death all those who refused to become Christians (58). Many pagans and Jews then embraced the Christian faith and Christianity took root everywhere. It was then told to king Constantine that the Jews had become Christians for fear of being killed but that they continued to follow their religion. The king said: “How will we know?” Paul, the patriarch of Constantinople, said: “The Torah forbids [eating] pork and it is for this reason that the Jews do not eat meat. Order that the throats of pigs be cut, that the meat should be cooked, and fed to the members of this community. In this way you will find that all those who refuse to eat are still tied to their religion.” King Constantine replied. “But if the Torah forbids the pig, why is lawful for us to eat its flesh and make others eat it?”. Patriarch Paul replied: “You must know that Christ our Lord, repealed all provisions of the Torah and gave us a new law which is the Gospel. He said in the Holy Gospel: “Not everything that enters the mouth defiles a man (and he meant any food). What defiles a man is just what comes out of his mouth” (59), i.e. folly and wickedness, and all that is similar to this. The apostle Paul said so in his first letter to the Corinthians: “Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will destroy both” (60). And it is also written in the Acts: “Peter, chief of the Apostles, was in the city of Jaffa (61) in the house of a tanner named Simon. At the sixth hour of the day he went out on the terrace of the house to pray, but a deep sleep fell upon him and saw the sky open. From the sky he saw a mantle descend to earth in which there was every kind of quadruped, wild beasts, flying things and birds of the air, and he heard a voice saying: ‘O Peter, get up, kill and eat.’ Peter replied: ‘O Lord, I have never eaten anything unclean.’ But a second time the voice said: ‘Eat, what God has cleansed you must not consider unclean.’ The voice repeated it three times. Then the mantle was taken back into heaven.” (62) Peter was amazed and wondered what it meant. Because of that vision and because of what Christ our Lord said in the Holy Gospel, Peter and Paul ordered us to eat the flesh of every quadruped and therefore it is not wrong to eat pork or any other animal.”The king then ordered him to kill the pigs, cook the meat and put it at the doors of the churches in all his kingdom on Easter Sunday. To everyone coming out of the church a bite of pork was given, and those who refused to eat it were killed. Thus it was that many Jews were killed in that circumstance.

    Constantine did not force pagans to become Christians, and indeed paganism remained the state religion for another 50 years.

    I find it fascinating how the preachers of that time refused to acknowledge that Peter's vision was about man, as he said, the exact same way they do today. Where did "Peter and Paul order us to eat the flesh of every quadruped"? Yet Mainstream Christianity has been teaching this and billions of people followed this doctrine for centuries. Most don't even know why. Is this what Jesus warned of in Matthew 24?

    I find this fascinating because for the first time, "Christians" were the persecutors. How does this action fit with what Jesus actually taught? It doesn't. I never sat well given scripture.

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    Had Jesus been there, they would have Killed Him as well.

    The Catholic church along with all her thousands of her Mainstream Christian Daughters daughters still adhere to this doctrine and many others that were started in Constantine's time. Christmas, Easter, everyone is immortal, forever burning torture for people who don't belong to this huge organized Mainstream Christian Church, etc.

    A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

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    Protestants were killed by the Catholics over the centuries by the millions. We do not consider the catholics our mother. And following Jesus is not a matter of what one eats or not.
    ------------------------
    "He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you. But to do justly..and to love mercy...and to walk humbly with your God."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    20. The King Constantine gave orders that no Jew should live in Jerusalem or pass through it, and he also ordered to put to death all those who refused to become Christians (58). . .Paul, the patriarch of Constantinople, said. . .(62) ". . .Peter was amazed and wondered what it meant. Because of that vision and because of what Christ our Lord said in the Holy Gospel, Peter and Paul ordered us to eat the flesh of every quadruped and therefore it is not wrong to eat pork or any other animal.”
    What does this have to do with the NT, or with anything today?

    I find it fascinating how the preachers of that time refused to acknowledge that Peter's vision was about man, as he said, the exact same way they do today. Where did "Peter and Paul order us to eat the flesh of every quadruped"?
    Nowhere. . .

    The NT practice of eating quadrupeds does not come from Peter's vision. . .nor any NT command to eat quadrupeds.

    It comes from no longer being restricted in the NT from eating quadrupeds (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14, 17, 20; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; 1Ti 4:3-5; Heb 9:9-10; Col 2:16-19; Eph 2:14-15; Lk 11:41). . .and you know that.

    Why are you talking about this. . .what old axe are you trying to grind. . .what does any of this have to do with the NT, or with anything today?
    Last edited by smoky; 04-09-2017 at 11:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    Protestants were killed by the Catholics over the centuries by the millions. We do not consider the catholics our mother. And following Jesus is not a matter of what one eats or not.
    As were Christians by the Jews in the early church.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smoky View Post
    As were Christians by the Jews in the early church.
    Yes. I have been recently learning that the persecution of the Jews who believed Christ was the Messiah by the Jews who did not. It was not the Romans but the Jews who were persecuting the new believers. They were also, of course, also Jews. I had never thought about it before but the Christians described as being killed in Acts were all by the Jews too. The Roman persecution kicked in later for different reasons. It was the Jews killing the Jews, not the Romans, at first.
    ------------------------
    "He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you. But to do justly..and to love mercy...and to walk humbly with your God."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    Protestants were killed by the Catholics over the centuries by the millions. We do not consider the catholics our mother. And following Jesus is not a matter of what one eats or not.
    Yet you still adhere to most of their doctrines and traditions. And following Jesus means to humble ourselves to the will of God, which is called "Repentance" and walk as he walked. He never ignored His Fathers Commandments and why would He, unless there was a huge organized Church tempting Him to do so.

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    Lets take it really back> did the early >real early church teach the rapture?. yes it did Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them. And Irenaeus believed in the Bride Of Christ {RAPTURE}

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    Quote Originally Posted by smoky View Post
    What does this have to do with the NT, or with anything today?


    Nowhere. . .

    The NT practice of eating quadrupeds does not come from Peter's vision. . .nor any NT command to eat quadrupeds.

    It comes from no longer being restricted in the NT from eating quadrupeds (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14, 17, 20; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; 1Ti 4:3-5; Heb 9:9-10; Col 2:16-19; Eph 2:14-15; Lk 11:41). . .and you know that.

    Why are you talking about this. . .what old axe are you trying to grind. . .what does any of this have to do with the NT, or with anything today?
    If you read what Jesus actually said, and compare Paul and Peter with the rest of scripture, you get a completely different gospel than the one created in 350 AD and followed and taught to this day. The scriptures you use to support this doctrine are speaking to "the weak in faith" "meats offered to idols" "unbelievers at their feast". Jesus just got done rejecting the Mainstream Church of His time for transgressing the Commandments of God by their own man made traditions and doctrines, then He says "What comes from within defiles a man". Unclean is not unclean of itself. God is the creator and the definer of holy and clean. Rebellion and disobedience and dishonor all come from within and have defiled many as our examples we are instructed to use for our admonition in 1 Cor. 10 show us. None of your scripture "releases" us from doing the will of God. From accepting His Righteousness, His definition of Holy and Unholy, Clean and Unclean.

    I mean come on Smokey, have you not read Acts 15?

    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Would the clean and unclean animals loaded on the Ark be part of these works?

    19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: The Old Testament was all these had. Constantine wasn't even in the picture yet.(sarc.)

    20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled(food), and from blood(food).

    21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

    Of course they would have learned why Jesus sent the unclean spirits into the herd of swine. So the original Catholic Church killed people for not eating food, not just any food, but food that God has expressly created as unclean. Would Jesus have ever done such a thing? Honestly now. Would the Jesus, taught in the Bible, force people to eat pork and when they didn't, kill them?

    Of course not Smokey. Surely we can agree on that. So if the Spirit of Christ wasn't on them, what spirit was? So how much of their teaching should I listen to?

    Given that Jesus warned that Many would come in His Name and deceive Many, shouldn't we "Take Heed"? The early Catholic Church killed people who wouldn't work on Saturday as well. So what doctrines did the early mainstream Christian church create. Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, all not found anywhere in the Bible and all placed on pagan high days by a known sun worshipper. Rejection of God's Holy Sabbaths, rejection of God's definition of Holy and unholy, clean and unclean. All humans are born immortal. Purgatory, the teaching that you go to heaven as soon as you die.

    I think it has everything to do with today and the NT. It also explains why we don't read anything about the greatest high day in MCC anywhere in the Bible or why there is no clear instruction ever given to ignore God's definition of clean and unclean which He took great efforts to preserve for us to know.

    I find it interesting to say the least, don't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    If you read what Jesus actually said, and compare Paul and Peter with the rest of scripture, you get a completely different gospel than the one created in 350 AD and followed and taught to this day. The scriptures you use to support this doctrine are speaking to "the weak in faith"
    Read 'em again. . .1Co 8:4, 7, 9-13, where vv. 4, 7, 10 are speaking to those who have knowledge, about those who do not. . .therefore making them weak (unknowledgeable) in faith.

    None of your scripture "releases" us from doing the will of God.
    Everything taught and prescribed in the NT is the will of God.

    You simply do not believe the NT word of God, where Christians are no longer required to observe the Mosaic food laws

    (Mk 7:19; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; 1Ti 4:3-5; Heb 9:9-10; Col 2:16-19; Eph 2:14-15; Lk 11:41; Ro 14:14, 17, 20).

    I mean come on Smokey, have you not read Acts 15?
    Your unbelief of the NT prevents you from understanding Ac 15, where these four temporary stipulations were only for the churches in the provinces of Antioch, Syria and Celica,
    and were laid down in the areas of particular Gentile weaknesses, which violations were singularly repulsive to the Christian Jews.
    If these temporary stipulations were observed, they would help each individual, as well as the church fellowship in these provinces between Gentiles (who would be relieved of circumcision) and Jews (who would be relieved of these repulsive Gentile violations) until the Gentiles generally became more faithful in Christian obedience.

    These stipulations did not apply to the church in Jerusalem or other provinces,
    and do not demonstrate that the NT is still under the Mosaic food laws, which is contrary to NT apostolic teaching in
    Mk 7:19; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; 1Ti 4:3-5; Heb 9:9-10; Col 2:16-19; Eph 2:14-15; Lk 11:41; Ro 14:14, 17, 20.
    Last edited by smoky; 04-09-2017 at 02:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    I studied this years ago but thought it appropriate to bring up today given the season.

    Now Eutychius of Alexandria was the Melkite patriarch of Alexandria in the 10th century AD and wrote his Annals in Arabic. (Patrologiae Graeca 111) It was translated into Latin in the 17th century by Edward Pococke; and Migne has reprinted Pococke’s translation.

    The passage does, of course, appear in Bartolomeo Pirone’s modern Italian translation of the Annals. Rather than translate Pococke’s Latin, based on who knows what text, let’s look at Pirone’s Italian, chapter 11, section 20, p.203:

    20. The King Constantine gave orders that no Jew should live in Jerusalem or pass through it, and he also ordered to put to death all those who refused to become Christians (58). Many pagans and Jews then embraced the Christian faith and Christianity took root everywhere. It was then told to king Constantine that the Jews had become Christians for fear of being killed but that they continued to follow their religion. The king said: “How will we know?” Paul, the patriarch of Constantinople, said: “The Torah forbids [eating] pork and it is for this reason that the Jews do not eat meat. Order that the throats of pigs be cut, that the meat should be cooked, and fed to the members of this community. In this way you will find that all those who refuse to eat are still tied to their religion.” King Constantine replied. “But if the Torah forbids the pig, why is lawful for us to eat its flesh and make others eat it?”. Patriarch Paul replied: “You must know that Christ our Lord, repealed all provisions of the Torah and gave us a new law which is the Gospel. He said in the Holy Gospel: “Not everything that enters the mouth defiles a man (and he meant any food). What defiles a man is just what comes out of his mouth” (59), i.e. folly and wickedness, and all that is similar to this. The apostle Paul said so in his first letter to the Corinthians: “Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will destroy both” (60). And it is also written in the Acts: “Peter, chief of the Apostles, was in the city of Jaffa (61) in the house of a tanner named Simon. At the sixth hour of the day he went out on the terrace of the house to pray, but a deep sleep fell upon him and saw the sky open. From the sky he saw a mantle descend to earth in which there was every kind of quadruped, wild beasts, flying things and birds of the air, and he heard a voice saying: ‘O Peter, get up, kill and eat.’ Peter replied: ‘O Lord, I have never eaten anything unclean.’ But a second time the voice said: ‘Eat, what God has cleansed you must not consider unclean.’ The voice repeated it three times. Then the mantle was taken back into heaven.” (62) Peter was amazed and wondered what it meant. Because of that vision and because of what Christ our Lord said in the Holy Gospel, Peter and Paul ordered us to eat the flesh of every quadruped and therefore it is not wrong to eat pork or any other animal.”The king then ordered him to kill the pigs, cook the meat and put it at the doors of the churches in all his kingdom on Easter Sunday. To everyone coming out of the church a bite of pork was given, and those who refused to eat it were killed. Thus it was that many Jews were killed in that circumstance.

    Constantine did not force pagans to become Christians, and indeed paganism remained the state religion for another 50 years.

    I find it fascinating how the preachers of that time refused to acknowledge that Peter's vision was about man, as he said, the exact same way they do today. Where did "Peter and Paul order us to eat the flesh of every quadruped"? Yet Mainstream Christianity has been teaching this and billions of people followed this doctrine for centuries. Most don't even know why. Is this what Jesus warned of in Matthew 24?

    I find this fascinating because for the first time, "Christians" were the persecutors. How does this action fit with what Jesus actually taught? It doesn't. I never sat well given scripture.

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    Had Jesus been there, they would have Killed Him as well.

    The Catholic church along with all her thousands of her Mainstream Christian Daughters daughters still adhere to this doctrine and many others that were started in Constantine's time. Christmas, Easter, everyone is immortal, forever burning torture for people who don't belong to this huge organized Mainstream Christian Church, etc.

    A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
    Christians have never been "persecutors".
    That would make them non-Christians.
    "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (Ja 5:20)

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