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Thread: The heart of the matter - the 144,000

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    Question The heart of the matter - the 144,000

    What is the "case" for the 144,000 being the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witness organization? Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruminator View Post
    What is the "case" for the 144,000 being the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witness organization? Thanks.
    There is no scriptural "case" for it. It is a cult thing that has been revised over their history: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fa...reet-slave.php

    Think circular reasoning if you consider the above link and information.

    I doubt you will get anything more than a "cookie-cutter" response from any JW on this topic. The current roster of JW apologist's here don't seem to have too much depth or insight among them.
    "Ignorance Can Be Educated And Crazy Can Be Medicated But There's No Cure For Stupid."

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    Ruminator (02-17-2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Beowulf View Post
    There is no scriptural "case" for it. It is a cult thing that has been revised over their history: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fa...reet-slave.php

    Think circular reasoning if you consider the above link and information.

    I doubt you will get anything more than a "cookie-cutter" response from any JW on this topic. The current roster of JW apologist's here don't seem to have too much depth or insight among them.
    Thanks, just what I was seeking. Apparently the premise is Jesus asking who the "faithful and discreet slave" is. Their answer to that question is oddly that one must see this faithful one as a "ruling class". I find it much more Occam-friendly to see the faithful and discreet servant as primarily referring to Jesus and/or a faithful disciple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruminator View Post
    Thanks, just what I was seeking. Apparently the premise is Jesus asking who the "faithful and discreet slave" is. Their answer to that question is oddly that one must see this faithful one as a "ruling class". I find it much more Occam-friendly to see the faithful and discreet servant as primarily referring to Jesus and/or a faithful disciple.
    Jesus was asking his disciples a question, in similar fashion as he had done many times with them, as a parable.

    He did not say, "Who really is the faithful servant, the ones who will be part of the 144,000 still remaining on earth of whom only a few will be left in a couple thousand years from now to become a governing body of servants who will have authority over one specific religion of Christendom, which I will pick at that time, to get experience as rulers before they rule beside me in heaven."

    But then again, that may be in the next NWT revision.
    "Ignorance Can Be Educated And Crazy Can Be Medicated But There's No Cure For Stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruminator View Post
    What is the "case" for the 144,000 being the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witness organization? Thanks.
    The 144,000 (or those on the earth) are not the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    At Hebrews 13:17, Paul wrote: Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (KJV)

    The Greek rendered "rule over you" has the meaning "steer a ship, direct, govern"

    This is what the group of Christians in Jerusalem did as recorded at Acts 15:1-29. So not all of the 144,000 on the earth at that time were members of the Governing Body, and they aren't today.
    “Can we conceive of a greater incongruity, than for a Christian to go from his closet, where he has been praying for his enemies, and command his troops to plunge the weapons of death with fiend like fury, into the hearts of those very enemies? In the one case, he happily resembles his dying Master; but whom does he resemble in the other? Jesus prayed for his murderers. Christians murder those for whom they pray.” - Henry Grew, 1828

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    Quote Originally Posted by BibleStudent View Post
    The 144,000 (or those on the earth) are not the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    At Hebrews 13:17, Paul wrote: Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (KJV)

    The Greek rendered "rule over you" has the meaning "steer a ship, direct, govern"

    This is what the group of Christians in Jerusalem did as recorded at Acts 15:1-29. So not all of the 144,000 on the earth at that time were members of the Governing Body, and they aren't today.
    Okay, so who then are the 144,000?

    Acts 15 speaks of:

    * the 13 apostles
    * the elders

    The apostles were witnesses to Jesus' resurrection and who testified and planted the assembly.
    The elders were the alpha males of the community of believers and acted as representatives for their families, not as kings.

    Act 15:2 Paul and Barnabas had quite a dispute and argument with them. So Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to confer with the apostles and elders about this question.
    So do they claim the authority of the apostles or of the elders?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruminator View Post
    Okay, so who then are the 144,000?
    Per the WT they are the total number of Anointed Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruminator View Post
    So do they claim the authority of the apostles or of the elders?
    Both, when it applies to their male members who serve on their governing body. Peter, Paul, Russell, and Rutherford are waiting for the rest of the living JW anointed to finish their "earthly course."
    "Ignorance Can Be Educated And Crazy Can Be Medicated But There's No Cure For Stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Beowulf View Post
    Per the WT they are the total number of Anointed Christians...
    The first fruits looked forward to the day of the messiah but were pre-Christian. They were covered instead by the new testament/covenant:

    Mat_26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    The new covenant is made expressly with the Jews:

    Heb_8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    It was made specifically to deal with sins under the Sinai covenant:

    Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    This is either a subset or identical to the "little flock" who were the faithful:

    Rev_7:4* And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Luk 12:29 "So stop concerning yourselves about what you will eat or what you will drink, and stop being distressed,
    Luk 12:30 because it is the gentiles who are concerned about all these things. Surely your Father knows that you need them!
    Luk 12:31 Instead, be concerned about his kingdom, and these things will be provided for you as well.
    Luk 12:32 Stop being afraid, little flock, because your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom.
    It's a wonderful life

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