Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 53

Thread: Who is correct? Biblical Unitarian's or The Watchtower Society?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    8,396
    Thanks
    2,095
    Thanked 1,247 Times in 1,076 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by solver View Post
    "And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me."


    And the WORD was made FLESH ... was that the Father too?


    http://biblehub.com/john/1-14.htm


    New International Version
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    New Living Translation
    So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father's one and only Son.



    English Standard Version
    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    Berean Study Bible
    The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    Berean Literal Bible
    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    New American Standard Bible
    And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    King James Bible
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    International Standard Version
    The Word became flesh and lived among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, who is full of grace and truth.



    NET Bible
    Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory--the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.



    New Heart English Bible
    The Word became flesh and lived among us, and we saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only of the Father, full of grace and truth.



    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of The Only Begotten of The Father, full of grace and truth.



    GOD'S WORDģ Translation
    The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.



    New American Standard 1977
    And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.



    Jubilee Bible 2000
    And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.



    King James 2000 Bible
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



    American King James Version
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



    American Standard Version
    And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.



    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



    Darby Bible Translation
    And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth;



    English Revised Version
    And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.



    Webster's Bible Translation
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



    Weymouth New Testament
    And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory--the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.



    World English Bible
    The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.



    Young's Literal Translation
    And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

    Glory ... of the human Son of God? What "Glory" would that be, if Jesus had been "only a man?"

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Amishland PA
    Posts
    8,699
    Thanks
    1,275
    Thanked 1,188 Times in 924 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by solver View Post
    Glory ... of the human Son of God? What "Glory" would that be, if Jesus had been "only a man?"
    Your own verse answers that question.... grace and truth. Something one finds very little of among mankind, and at times especially these "believer" people.

    Yehu
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke
    (One of wisest men I've known.)

    Current ignore list: JimD, De Maria, Agape, smoky


  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    I live in the Pacific Northwest, but travel all over the western US.
    Posts
    4,123
    Thanks
    2,060
    Thanked 1,033 Times in 849 Posts
    Blog Entries
    40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Fountain
    Tigger2 has stated why the JW's are correct and we await a Biblical Unitarian response?

    In the beginning there was God’s Grand Design, the declaration of His Intention and Purpose, and that declaration was with God as His project, and it was fully expressive of God Himself. - From A Translation of John’s Gospel from the Greek by Anthony Buzzard

    Interestingly enough, Biblical Unitarian Anthony Buzzard appears to render it as God Himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Fountain
    Many have sought to take this on and correct the error with the literal grammar of the Greek however perhaps they need to be reminded that even though the NT is written in Greek, many of the thoughts and sayings are of Hebraism origin and the text is loaded with Figures of Speech that are not to be seen as lessening the meaning of the text but rather a figure of speech brings forth emphasis for an indepth presentation to find the true meaning of a passage instead of looking at only one word or one verse as is done all the time! Should we not jest that it's impossible to come to the true and accurate interpretation or translation without also including the figures of speech throughout the whole Bible?
    Hebraism's and Figures of Speech, such as I Am statements definitely carry meaning that should not be overlooked in the course of biblical study.

    Concepts held by those to whom were entrusted the oracles of God may or may not carry significant truth. Paul says, "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." So not according to knowledge, Paul goes on to clarify what knowledge, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

    In light of this, I give the Judaic concept of God heavy consideration. Of course in that they do not accept the NT, or Jesus, I am careful to weed-out concepts that appear to be set specifically against Christian concepts. But still, John's use of the term Logos, more than likely arises from the Hebrew concept of Memra - http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memra - where Memra is the word of God, and takes on a personified agency of it's own.

    John, being inspired, sets the concept of Memra/Logos in proper terms. In terms we can certainly trust. He definitely personifies the Logos, as the Hebrew concept does.

    Within orthodox Judaism many Hebraic concepts about God are only shared with, as they say, the properly initiated. In speaking directly with orthodox Jews, proper initiation, through study at the direction of well trained and studied Jewish rabbis is necessary otherwise one is bound to fall into wrong understanding as it were.

    Hebraisms, in their fullest sense, are probably best learned from Hebrew people, or the descendants thereof.
    Last edited by Gideon; 02-13-2017 at 09:15 PM.
    And the Lord said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Amishland PA
    Posts
    8,699
    Thanks
    1,275
    Thanked 1,188 Times in 924 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gideon View Post
    In the beginning there was Godís Grand Design, the declaration of His Intention and Purpose, and that declaration was with God as His project, and it was fully expressive of God Himself. - From A Translation of Johnís Gospel from the Greek by Anthony Buzzard

    Interestingly enough, Biblical Unitarian Anthony Buzzard appears to render it as God Himself.
    Anthony Buzzard doesn't know Greek for Jack.

    "Beginning" is rendered from the Greek word αρχη (arche) and given the written style of John, it would have been understood by all as a reference to the Greek philosophical concept of "the stuff out of which the universe was made" hence - "the cosmic protoplasm" (cf. Kittle's)

    You can take it from there. I have faith in you Gideon.

    Yehu
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke
    (One of wisest men I've known.)

    Current ignore list: JimD, De Maria, Agape, smoky


  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Yehushuan For This Useful Post:

    JohnB (02-16-2017)

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    820
    Thanks
    201
    Thanked 89 Times in 81 Posts

    Default

    some how my last comment deleted so ill try again both groups are sanatic

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    I live in the Pacific Northwest, but travel all over the western US.
    Posts
    4,123
    Thanks
    2,060
    Thanked 1,033 Times in 849 Posts
    Blog Entries
    40

    Default Speaking presumptuously for God

    Quote Originally Posted by Yehushuan View Post
    Anthony Buzzard doesn't know Greek for Jack.

    "Beginning" is rendered from the Greek word αρχη (arche) and given the written style of John, it would have been understood by all as a reference to the Greek philosophical concept of "the stuff out of which the universe was made" hence - "the cosmic protoplasm" (cf. Kittle's)

    You can take it from there. I have faith in you Gideon.

    Yehu
    So in Sir Anthony Buzzard's "Greek" translation it is apparent he does not know Greek. Thank you. I don't speak Greek, but I was able to come to a similar conclusion based on other facts...

    The traditional translation through-out history and across multiple languages has been the same from the beginning, no matter what language it's been translated to.

    Perhaps what Anthony means in using the term 'Greek', is that the sound and enduring traditional translation is Greek-to-him, and so he's come up with something more in-line with his beliefs.

    The scriptures tell us that in the latter-days some will not endure sound doctrine. In this, here with Anthony's latter-day translation, we see the scriptures come alive.

    I think much of the same can be said about the latter-day JW translation of John 1:1 as well. Additionally, with JW failed predictions, it is proved they are not 'faithful witnesses' as they make themselves out to be, nor is the organization the sole mouth-piece of God here on earth, as they've indicated. They are proven presumptuous and no one is to be afraid of them, precisely as scripture tells us.

    Deuteronomy 18:22
    When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
    And the Lord said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you.

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Amishland PA
    Posts
    8,699
    Thanks
    1,275
    Thanked 1,188 Times in 924 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gideon View Post
    The traditional translation through-out history and across multiple languages has been the same from the beginning, no matter what language it's been translated to.
    First I should say I had never heard of Mr. Buzzard before this and did not waste the time on any search. But yes. Even to a second year Greek student his "fail" is obvious. And there's not even any esoteric tradition that could account for such a rendering.

    That said, most translators "through-out history" are beholden to their masters - some Church Council or Ecclesia that has a doctrinal agenda to spearhead. In this regards, the KJV is no different from the NWT, save for the measure of latitude taken in the "far stretch" of definition. The Greek text published by Erasmus was as an appendage to his LATIN translation, an exhibit if you will, to prove that his Latin text was superior to the Vulgate and should be adopted by Rome as a replacement. How in God's name he thought the Pope would go for this is just beyond me. (Actually I do know, it's the scholar's code of truth that cannot fathom political expediency.)

    But as I've said, it is Not even esoteric that αρχη (arche) would be understood as the stuff-from-which-all-matter-was-derived, hence "cosmic protoplasm". Given that Logos in its very real application would best be described today by the word "Pattern" we have - "The Pattern was effused throughout the cosmic protoplasm" as a functional equivalence for the first phrase of John 1:1. But I'm sure you don't wish to read my Ph.D. thesis on this. Literal word for word translations ignore the context of understanding that the reader of the text would arrive at during the time in (and for the audience to) which it was written.

    Kindly,
    Yehu
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke
    (One of wisest men I've known.)

    Current ignore list: JimD, De Maria, Agape, smoky


  9. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Henrietta NY
    Posts
    1,609
    Thanks
    999
    Thanked 412 Times in 332 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yehushuan View Post
    anthony buzzard doesn't know greek for jack.

    "beginning" is rendered from the greek word αρχη (arche) and given the written style of john, it would have been understood by all as a reference to the greek philosophical concept of "the stuff out of which the universe was made" hence - "the cosmic protoplasm" (cf. Kittle's)

    you can take it from there. I have faith in you gideon.

    Yehu
    amen!
    How far must someone fall before they hit their head? b

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Henrietta NY
    Posts
    1,609
    Thanks
    999
    Thanked 412 Times in 332 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yehushuan View Post
    First I should say I had never heard of Mr. Buzzard before this and did not waste the time on any search. But yes. Even to a second year Greek student his "fail" is obvious. And there's not even any esoteric tradition that could account for such a rendering.

    That said, most translators "through-out history" are beholden to their masters - some Church Council or Ecclesia that has a doctrinal agenda to spearhead. In this regards, the KJV is no different from the NWT, save for the measure of latitude taken in the "far stretch" of definition. The Greek text published by Erasmus was as an appendage to his LATIN translation, an exhibit if you will, to prove that his Latin text was superior to the Vulgate and should be adopted by Rome as a replacement. How in God's name he thought the Pope would go for this is just beyond me. (Actually I do know, it's the scholar's code of truth that cannot fathom political expediency.)

    But as I've said, it is Not even esoteric that αρχη (arche) would be understood as the stuff-from-which-all-matter-was-derived, hence "cosmic protoplasm". Given that Logos in its very real application would best be described today by the word "Pattern" we have - "The Pattern was effused throughout the cosmic protoplasm" as a functional equivalence for the first phrase of John 1:1. But I'm sure you don't wish to read my Ph.D. thesis on this. Literal word for word translations ignore the context of understanding that the reader of the text would arrive at during the time in (and for the audience to) which it was written.

    Kindly,
    Yehu
    As an idiomatic expression ἀρχῇ can be understood in many ways. John 1:1 is clearly a reference to Genesis 1 which may align itself with Creatio Ex nihilo

    I highly doubt that John 1:1 can be read in a vacuum. The preexistent logos is personified and later in this hymn is clarified.

    Blessings In Christ

    JOHNB

    JohnB
    How far must someone fall before they hit their head? b

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    47,057
    Thanks
    5,418
    Thanked 6,701 Times in 5,285 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnB View Post
    amen!
    Anthony is fluent in Greek, Hebrew, German and French (as well as English, of course). He's taught them all (with the exception of English) for decades.

    #hangthehound
    The hound of Jewish monotheism.

    "For us there is one God. He is the Father." (I Corinthians 8:6)

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •