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Thread: Misinterpretation of 1 John 3:9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip2 View Post
    The verse reads..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
    Those who insist it "means" continue to commit sin habitually, seem to be unaware of the verses' inclusion of the "seeds'" ramifications.
    They must think that oak trees won't "habitually" bear acorns. Once in awhile, but not frequently, it will bear onions or pears.

    What can Godly seed bear besides Godly fruit?
    1 John

    5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
    8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
    2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
    5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
    6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.


    Seeds never give fruit unless they die.

    John 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

    Something to consider.

    Or else, why do you need an advocate with the Father? Many translations have "makes a practice of sinning", and our options become very limited when John says:

    8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    While later on saying:

    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

    1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.


    For, when John told us:

    1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


    It becomes clear that God's children can, and do, sin occasionally. And, that all sin is not equal:

    1 John 5:
    16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
    17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.


    Unless, perhaps, none of us, except Jesus, is a child of God?

    Perhaps that's why Paul wrote:

    Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

    We're adopted.
    "You [the Father], the Only True God" -- Jesus Christ (1st Century CE)

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Onymous Brother View Post
    1 John

    5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
    8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
    2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
    5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
    6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.


    Seeds never give fruit unless they die.

    John 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

    Something to consider.

    Or else, why do you need an advocate with the Father? Many translations have "makes a practice of sinning", and our options become very limited when John says:

    8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    While later on saying:

    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

    1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.


    For, when John told us:

    1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


    It becomes clear that God's children can, and do, sin occasionally. And, that all sin is not equal:

    1 John 5:
    16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
    17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.


    Unless, perhaps, none of us, except Jesus, is a child of God?

    Perhaps that's why Paul wrote:

    Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

    We're adopted.
    Hi Brother,

    Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
    5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

    Isn't that saying that the only sin that could be committed by such a person is a sin that a) does not work ill to his neighbour, and b) does not break any commandment of God. What sin is that?

    1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    It is clear that we all have sin. We should not think that we have not sinned. But neither should we think that our sin cannot be cleansed, or that our sinfulness cannot be put to death. Jesus died to take away the sin that we are guilty of, and he makes his abode in us to take way our sinfulness.

    Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, to plead with us, and to comfort us, and to show us hope. But there comes a point in time when we have learned and have faith, such as Jesus had. His faith kept him from sin. And as it is written "We have the mind of Christ."

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    Hi Brother,

    Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
    5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

    Isn't that saying that the only sin that could be committed by such a person is a sin that a) does not work ill to his neighbour, and b) does not break any commandment of God. What sin is that?

    1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    It is clear that we all have sin. We should not think that we have not sinned. But neither should we think that our sin cannot be cleansed, or that our sinfulness cannot be put to death. Jesus died to take away the sin that we are guilty of, and he makes his abode in us to take way our sinfulness.

    Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, to plead with us, and to comfort us, and to show us hope. But there comes a point in time when we have learned and have faith, such as Jesus had. His faith kept him from sin. And as it is written "We have the mind of Christ."
    Dear hay,
    You left off the part after when one is reborn. 1 John 3:6,"No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him."

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    Hi Brother,

    Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
    5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

    Isn't that saying that the only sin that could be committed by such a person is a sin that a) does not work ill to his neighbour, and b) does not break any commandment of God. What sin is that?

    1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    It is clear that we all have sin. We should not think that we have not sinned. But neither should we think that our sin cannot be cleansed, or that our sinfulness cannot be put to death. Jesus died to take away the sin that we are guilty of, and he makes his abode in us to take way our sinfulness.

    Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, to plead with us, and to comfort us, and to show us hope. But there comes a point in time when we have learned and have faith, such as Jesus had. His faith kept him from sin. And as it is written "We have the mind of Christ."
    I do the best that I can and fail, sometimes miserably, quite often, so I try never to gauge what the "trip line" is. A favorite example (ignore the dichotomy):

    A woman you know pounds on your door at night. You open the door, see she is beaten and bloodied.
    "Please help me! He'll kill me if he finds me!"
    You let her in.
    Couple of minutes later, the door crashes open and a guy with a shotgun points the weapon at you.
    "Where is she? Did she come in here?"
    There are many things you could do if you had time, but the way this plays out, you have two choices.
    1) Lie and save your life, the woman's life and the lives of your family in your house.
    2) Tell the truth and you all die.

    In this case, the scenario is quite unfairly rigged. But, there are times these scenarios do pop up.

    So, I never try to judge. And I even fail miserably at that many times.

    A Christian's maturity is never complete.

    I thank God that He has provided an advocate who knows what it's like to be tempted.
    "You [the Father], the Only True God" -- Jesus Christ (1st Century CE)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dear hay,
    You left off the part after when one is reborn. 1 John 3:6,"No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him."
    Have you been "reborn"? If so, how is it like to be unable to sin?

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    "You [the Father], the Only True God" -- Jesus Christ (1st Century CE)

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Onymous Brother View Post
    So, I never try to judge. And I even fail miserably at that many times.
    Try editing your own posts and you would not fail so miserably.
    A Christian's maturity is never complete.
    You are a JW, which means not a Christian. The Christians are part of the whore of Bablyon, remember?
    I thank God that He has provided an advocate who knows what it's like to be tempted.
    Ah yes, the Son of God, the I AM who was with God and was God. You talking about HIm?
    ------------------------
    "He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of you. But to do justly..and to love mercy...and to walk humbly with your God."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MM501 View Post
    but you also say...


    How can the man that has been given nothing by God be expected to achieve anything but by his own decisions?
    What other options are there for him by nature except to believe that he is capable?

    How can he be held accountable for not believing God when he has only his own mind to work with?
    I agree MM,

    The part of the story that Haden seems not interested in is the serpent. Every other Biblical reference to this story is centered on the part that he deems irrelevant, or at least not relevant enough to discuss.

    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    If you look at Eve the woman as the bride, church, wife. It is a simple prophesy of the corrupt church we are warned about over and over and over in the Bible. The first Adam listened to the wife, woman, church, the 2nd Adam didn't and was killed for it, but rose again because He DIDN"T listen to the "woman.

    But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. This seems like we should look at the example as something to watch out for, to "not lust after the same things she lusted for". Not a lesson on how she was incapable to resist the temptation.

    It seems we are right back to the last conversation you and I had. Who do we listen to? The MCC? Or "every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God"

    Hayden says;
    All up until Moses, men were living by the law of their conscience. They were living in the knowledge of good and evil, and those who did failed to do that law.
    Yet we know that God teaches differently, that Abraham, and by extension us, are blessed;"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Not his own conscience as many church doctrines teach, but God's Laws. Now many teach the God gave Moses different laws, and if you are speaking about the Levitical Priesthood that was "added" that is true, but as you and I discussed, there were a lot of God's Laws around before Moses that were the same as those given to Moses. Sabbath, Clean and unclean, don't kill, adultery, etc. At any rate, God did have laws before Moses even if those who adhere to the MCC don't believe it.

    Hayden says;
    "It was only by faith that the law could be achieved, but the people, as from the beginning, sought to achieve it by the knowledge of good and evil."
    But God's Word says: "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." and again; "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

    The Mainstream Church of Abel's time, and Caleb's time, and Jesus time didn't seek God by faith, but that's not because faith wasn't taught, or that from the beginning Faith wasn't available. God sent the prophets that they killed to teach them faith.

    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    Did Abel, the Prophet of God, teach a different faith than Abraham's or Noah's or any other righteous example? The "woman" might teach this, but only if the serpent deceived her.

    I agree that we are accountable for our choices. That we must humble ourselves to the God of the Bible if we expect Him to give us anything including Grace. If we don't, then our faith is in vain. Not because it sounds reasonable or easy, or because some reasonable sounding voice is telling me, but because of what the Bible actually says.

    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    And Again;

    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. This is why Jesus said "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness". WE have all these examples that Abel they did not have. Something better for us that they, and us, should receive the promise.

    "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

    Good catch MM, hopefully someone will consider.
    Last edited by Studyman; 04-17-2017 at 11:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Onymous Brother View Post
    I do the best that I can and fail, sometimes miserably, quite often, so I try never to gauge what the "trip line" is. A favorite example (ignore the dichotomy):

    A woman you know pounds on your door at night. You open the door, see she is beaten and bloodied.
    "Please help me! He'll kill me if he finds me!"
    You let her in.
    Couple of minutes later, the door crashes open and a guy with a shotgun points the weapon at you.
    "Where is she? Did she come in here?"
    There are many things you could do if you had time, but the way this plays out, you have two choices.
    1) Lie and save your life, the woman's life and the lives of your family in your house.
    2) Tell the truth and you all die.

    In this case, the scenario is quite unfairly rigged. But, there are times these scenarios do pop up.

    So, I never try to judge. And I even fail miserably at that many times.

    A Christian's maturity is never complete.

    I thank God that He has provided an advocate who knows what it's like to be tempted.
    The problem I see with that scenario is not the dilemma of what is the best thing to do in that situation, but that he was not trusting in God to provide him with the way out. He was deciding in the moment whether to save his life, and the life of others, or let them all die. As though life and death were in his own hands.

    Does God not care what happens to the man? If the man had put all of his trust in God, and leaned not at all on his own ability (to lie, or to speak truth), then wouldn't God provide a way out? But if he doesn't trust in God, surely God would allow him to figure it out for himself, seeing that he believes he can make a better call. God was able to cause that man to turn away and walk out that door without another work. All the man was able to do was lie, or allow him to kill the woman.

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    Studyman, do you honestly believe that what I meant was that nobody had faith before Moses or before Jesus?

    How many posts ago did I clearly state the process of Abraham getting faith?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    Studyman, do you honestly believe that what I meant was that nobody had faith before Moses or before Jesus?

    How many posts ago did I clearly state the process of Abraham getting faith?
    Hayden, if they cannot hear after what you have written over these past few posts it is not because of any failing in you or what you have been given to write.

    Geoff.
    God cannot give us anything without (Him) first growing our faith to a point where our faith enables Him to issue forth the power to effect His desired result. (Rom. 4:16 revelation)

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