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Thread: Misinterpretation of 1 John 3:9

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dear hay,
    Apparently your version of "truth" and "faith" isn't working out. Maybe you should rethink the road you are on (Mt 7:13). That "grace" thingy doesn't seem to be working out.
    You can take that up with God, if you think you have a better way. I will refer you back to this:

    Eze 36:22* Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.*
    Eze 36:23* And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.*
    Eze 36:24* For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.*
    Eze 36:25* Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.*
    Eze 36:26* A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.*
    Eze 36:27* And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.*
    Eze 36:28* And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.*

    When you have achieved this, be sure to let God know that you've done it already, so he doesn't double up. You don't want to end up with two of the same spirit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    Hayden

    Well an Atheist by definition has already heard the Word and has rejected it in favor of their own reasoning. I made the statement about humility because God said it was a necessary thing to know Him. I believe we have a choice because God said He gave me a choice. I trust in the Word's of God over my own thoughts because of the examples God gave me showing the consequences of both choices. He specifically said "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.". The teaching that Eve had the free will to disobey God, but not the free will to obey God just doesn't jive with the "Gospel of Christ".

    You have certainly reasoned out God 's Words in your own mind and have come up with some interesting doctrines. It seems you have forgotten a few things though. God created time for us, He doesn't live in it, therefore He sees the end from the beginning. He already knows the choices we will make, before we make them. If He chooses you before the foundation of the world, it is because he has seen the choices you made. He knows but we do not know. Like Paul explained;

    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    What was the first choice that Adam made? You say that God knew what he would choose before he existed. That clearly means that when God was making Adam, and the world around him, He was designing him with the thought of what he was going to choose. If God had looked at the choice he made, and thought "Hmm, I don't like that. I'll change this in my design." Adam would have then chose differently, because he would have been a different creature. That says to me that God designed Adam with a purpose in mind.

    If God looks forward in time and sees the choices of a man, what is he looking at? He is not a fortune teller. He is looking at his own creation. Everything that exists is made form things that are not. That is, God has made everything, and nothing functions in any other way than God created it to function. So when he is looking forward at Eve's choice, He is looking forward at his creation playing out. And if it is his creation and, seeing what it produces, he goes ahead with the creation, then He is purposing those things which he has created to come to pass. From the beginning the works were completed.

    And it's funny that you quote Romans 9, because I understand that chapter to be confirming that point.

    God has already made the commandment. "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" Who am I to argue with God.
    God set before them the way to life, and the way to death. He said choose life, that you may live. What he did not say is: This is life eternal, that you might choose to do the law, and live. God giving the law to Israel is not a statement about how we attain life. Yes, if they could keep it they would find life. But could they? Did they? No. But along comes Jesus, and he says "My Father in heaven, he does the works. Of myself I can do nothing.", when everyone else was saying, "We have eternal life in the scriptures". It's no surprise to me that he was the first to fulfill it.

    But it seems you are saying that I should do it like Israel were trying to, rather than Jesus? It makes more sense to me to do it they way Jesus did it. To get to a point were we can say "Of myself I can do nothing. It is my Father who is working in me, both to will and to do of his good pleasure. He does the works." How can we say that while we are still in the state of mind: choose to do good?

    From Eve's example I also learn about another spirit, another voice; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.". This is the serpent who reasons with us in our mind.

    "Oh, you can't choose God/ life, God/life chooses you" "no man can choose God/ life, it's impossible" And on and on from every MC teacher in the land.
    Where is this church you keep speaking of? The day I hear that preached at a church, I'll probably leap up in the air and cry "Hallelujah!!". All I hear is "God will only do so much, we have to do the rest". "God wants us to be saved, but we have to choose to want it." And that is all I hear on this forum, when I comes to that question. And it has come to it often enough in my time here.

    Joh 15:16* Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    And how did Jesus choose them?:

    Joh 17:9* I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

    Joh 6:44* No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The Bible doesn't support the teaching that God has a secret lottery that He uses to choose His elect. The Bible is clear that we are judged by our choices. We can choose to subject ourselves to His judgments, or we can choose not to.
    If the bible is so clear that we are judged by our choices, why does it use the word "works" instead? If it meant choices, why not say choices? I know that you see the two words as interchangeable, but they are not.

    We cannot choose to subject ourselves to God's judgements at all.

    Rom 8:7* Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    We cannot even comprehend God's judgements:

    1Co 2:11* For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.*
    ...
    1Co 2:14* But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.*

    4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

    10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    And again, "1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    We start from the standpoint of not knowing the truth. We are led to the desire to seek after God. We are choosing our own path, because we do not yet have faith, and we do not hear God. But the important point is, we are divising our way, but God is directing our steps. And we labour to find the truth, because we know no other way. Until we have learned where truth comes from, that is, God, not us. After we have found the truth, and found faith, and know that God has already completed our works, then we rest form our own works. Resting from our own works does not mean "down tools". It means exactly what Jesus said: "My Father works hitherto, and I work", and "He does the works", and "I by the finger of God cast out devils", and as Paul said: "if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

    What it means is that we are no longer seeing our works as a thing that is originating from us, but as the purpose of God, when he completed the works at the foundation and said "It is very good."


    It's not God's fault that Eve didn't chose His Word over the serpent. It wasn't that God didn't want Eve to make the right choice, it was that He wasn't going to make it for her. Has she "labored" and "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" the outcome would have been different as other examples show us.

    We can put on the "whole" armor of God, or we can choose to reason things out in our own mind.
    No, it is not God's "fault", because God didn't do anything faulty. All he did was create a creature that did not have the capacity to be like Himself of itself. He put that creature in a garden, gave it an instruction, and the creature did what it had the capacity to do. The creature desired to be wise, and seeing that the tree could give it to her, and that it looked good to eat, she decided to eat it. God did not twist her hand, she did it of her own choice. But God created her mind that made that choice; every aspect of it. So what fault is with God? For creating a creature that is less righteous than himself? No the fault is with the creature, for thinking it can be as righteous as it's creator. But Eve had not yet had the opportunity to learn the faith that was required to attentively hearken to God. Her fault is that she failed to do what she believe she could do of herself. The fault is thinking she could be like God.

    God's purpose in creation was not to create a faithful creature from the outset. If it was, he would have. Instead he decided to teach it faith. He had already decided to create a son who would sacrifice himself for all others, before he had even thought of creating Eve, I believe.

    Rev 13:8* And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Joh 12:24* Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    Isa 46:10* Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    If you think about it, that last means pretty much nothing, if the playing out of God's own creation is not considered as part of him doing all his pleasure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    First and foremost, if you are at the stage where you are choosing between doing something that you desire to do, and doing the will of God, then you do not have faith in God. If you believe His will is only going to happen if you decide it will happen, then there is no faith. Your faith can only be in yourself. If one has faith in his own ability to do good, then all God needs to do is take away the grace he has given them, and see how well they go without him.
    [12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    No mention of some guarantee that doing the will of God means not being tempted (drawn away of one's own lust and enticed).

    Secondly, if you are bringing to mind the lust of the flesh, considering it and making a decision, then the lust of the flesh has hardly been put to death in you, has it?
    I see no scripture where it is impossible for one to fall away while still being in this natural body.
    I would say as long as one has memory, there is the possibility of being enticed with something from one's past.

    Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    Can you tell me how one might make a decision about something without being mindful of it?
    To be mindful of something is not the same as having something enter your mind as a temptation that is fought against.

    So if you are tempted, and you have faith, and that faith has brought about the grace of God in you, then that temptation cannot touch you, because you do not consider it as an option, or a choice to be made. One who has faith does not see a command from God as an option. They see it simply as what shall be. Otherwise there is doubt, and it is not faith.
    Where is the "endurance" in that as James spoke of in 1:12 ?

    ὑπομένω hypoménō, hoop-om-en'-o; from G5259 and G3306; to stay under (behind), i.e. remain; figuratively, to undergo, i.e. bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere:—abide, endure, (take) patient(-ly), suffer, tarry behind.

    Where is the fortitude, perseverance, take patiently, suffering in your definition of temptation... which results in the receiving of a crown of life?

    What do you believe Jesus meant when he said "but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." (John 14:10)? Do you think he was saying that his good works were because he resisted temptation, and decided to do good? Does God look down at earth, trying to find a person who chooses good, and then says "Yep, that's my work, that one.", and "Oh! That was very good. Mine. I did that."?
    Jesus had His own will which was not always in line with the Father's. Yet he chose to do His Father's will.

    John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
    Jesus was doing the Father's work, yet He was not alone.

    It is actually quite plain to see the answer when you look at the parts of your life that have no sin. Why is it that not everybody is a murderer? Is it because most people are constantly making a conscious decision to refrain from killing? Or is it because they have access to grace in that thing, such that those things that would tempt a murderer, do not tempt them? For a murderer, temptation might come when they get into a heated argument. Well, I have gotten into a heated argument before, so I was exposed to the same temptation as they, and yet I have never decided not to kill, because the thought to kill never came to me.
    Then you were not tempted by it and temptation is out of scope in this example.
    No enticement, no drawing away, no endurance, no suffering, no patience

    I don't see why it can't have been the same thing for Jesus. He was tempted by being hungry, and the question "You have power, why not just make the stone into bread". But why couldn't it be the same as with my argument above? A situation that might have tempted some people was presented to him, but it did not cause any decision in his mind, it was just a natural response to know that he wasn't going to be eating. That is, he never got to the stage where he was thinking "Hmm, should I make them into bread? I am quite hungry..." He didn't get there because he had faith that his works were not his own, and he had no power of himself. So the temptation (the "opportunity", as a sinner would see it) was foolishness to him.
    If He wasn't enticed in His mind to make bread then it wasn't a temptation by James definition.
    You are not describing "temptation" in your examples.

    Everyone keeps on telling me "We must choose", "There needs to be a decision", "We are not robots/puppets". But I don't see it. There seems to be some unwritten law, that I have not ever read, that says God wants us to choose to serve him on our own. He gave us that opportunity, and it didn't work! What more do we want? Why do we keep beating that dead horse? Surely the answer is to learn faith, so that we can start relying on God, rather than our own ability.
    I don't see any guarantees that we will get to a place in this life where we will not have to "endure temptation"
    That is " to undergo, i.e. bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere:—abide, endure, (take) patient(-ly), suffer, tarry behind" being drawn away and enticed by our own lust.

    [12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    It sounds like you have built yourself an excuse to remain a sinner "because" you find yourself being tried.
    It's as if you are waiting to reach a place where you are no longer tried as if that is some sort of starting point.

    You seem to face the realization that the choice of whether or not to "endure" the temptation is continually staring you in the face with a shrug of the shoulders "I am not righteous, at all. So I am not looking at my own life"
    You don't seem to acknowledge that this is the trial of whether you love God or not.

    [12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    It is only through faith that we who are weak can be strong... but that doesn't mean there is no "fortitude, persevere:—abide, endure, (take) patient(-ly), suffer" that we must face.
    And of course whether to endure, take patiently, suffer through OR NOT implies a choice.
    Last edited by MM501; 04-15-2017 at 08:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    You can take that up with God, if you think you have a better way. I will refer you back to this:

    Eze 36:22* Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.*
    Eze 36:23* And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.*
    Eze 36:24* For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.*
    Eze 36:25* Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.*
    Eze 36:26* A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.*
    Eze 36:27* And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.*
    Eze 36:28* And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.*

    When you have achieved this, be sure to let God know that you've done it already, so he doesn't double up. You don't want to end up with two of the same spirit.
    Dear hay,
    I didn't realize you were of the "house of Israel". As you haven't been gathered "out of all the countries" (Ez 36:24), and brought to "your own land", then I have to suppose you are still waiting for a "new heart", and remain in your "filthiness" (Ez 36:25). And how has your gospel of grace saved you from your present predicament? Do you even read what you quote?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dear hay,
    Apparently your version of "truth" and "faith" isn't working out. Maybe you should rethink the road you are on (Mt 7:13). That "grace" thingy doesn't seem to be working out.
    You're really lost on this issue. Really lost. It causes Godly sorrow in those who understand what you do. Its sad to see someone treat what is sacred as if it were a thing that is common. You have no understanding of Matthew 7:13.
    God has two dwellings:
    one in heaven, and the other
    in a meek and thankful heart.
    Izaak Walton
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dear z,
    The "living Word of God" is present throughout time. Context changes, much like the weather. "Understanding" on the other hand, is withheld from the "wicked" (Daniel 12:10), which seems to always remain in the present tense, no matter the time. We will have to create an "all time" tense, which includes past, present, and future. But even then, "none of the wicked will understand" (Daniel 12:10).
    You sure seem to have all the verses down that reveal you live in a bad case of projection. You need to get rid of that spirit who misguides you. Stop thinking its the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would never flatter you that way. And, its flattery appealing to your sense of your self importance.
    God has two dwellings:
    one in heaven, and the other
    in a meek and thankful heart.
    Izaak Walton
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM501 View Post
    [12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
    This particular verse, I believe, should be translated "Happy is the one who perseveres when tested...". James 1:12 is not about a "dangling bauble" being set before one's eyes to entice but rather about the ancient practice of "trial by ordeal". That is, guilt or innocence (or in this case, the genuineness of one's faith) is evaluated by God by applying pressure. As the pressure increases, that which is not genuine will be destroyed leaving only the genuine. One who survives the trial is deemed faithful and receives the reward.

    Conversely, the following verses are about "temptation" rather than "trial" and it specifically says that God does NOT dangle baubles:

    Jas 1:12* Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.*
    Jas 1:13* Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:*
    Jas 1:14* But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.*
    Jas 1:15* Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.*
    To make sure no one gets this distinction wrong, James recaps:

    Jas 1:16* Do not err, my beloved brethren.*
    Jas 1:17* Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.*
    Jas 1:18* Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.*

    The "trial of faith" is a theme that runs throughout the scriptures:

    Job_23:10* But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

    Psa_17:3* Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited me in the night; thou hast tried me, and shalt find nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.

    Psa_66:10* For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.

    Psa_105:19* Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him.

    Jer_12:3* But thou, O LORD, knowest me: thou hast seen me, and tried mine heart toward thee: pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter.

    Dan_12:10* Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    Zec_13:9* And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    Heb_11:17* By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    Jas_1:12* Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    1Pe_1:7* That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

    Rev_2:10* Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    Rev_3:18* I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    People like to say "I'm going through a trial" when what they mean is "I'm having a hard time". But in reality, it is a trial and the verdict returned is either that your faith was genuine or it was phony. The quintessential "trial of faith" was that of Abraham, to which James will appeal in a minute. Had Abraham failed to surrender his son he would have failed the test, exposing an "empty" profession of love for Yehovah:

    Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt [test, try, prove] Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
    Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
    Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
    Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
    Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
    Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
    Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
    Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
    Gen 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
    Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
    Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
    Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
    Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
    Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
    Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
    Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
    Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
    Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    Last edited by Ruminator; 04-15-2017 at 12:35 PM.
    It's a wonderful life

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    [QUOTE=hayden;1315373]

    What was the first choice that Adam made?
    He chose to listen to the "Woman" instead of God. "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." These are our examples Hayden. If eternal life is simply the result of an invisible lottery regardless of repentance or actions why these examples? Am I to believe you and the entire Mainstream "Christian" religion that teaches this is an example to prove we can't obey God? So what of the example of Abraham? Questioning a promise of childbirth to an 80 year woman is a lot different than flat out disobedience. And Abraham didn't make the same choice as Eve. "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

    So you must believe Abraham scored the lottery but Eve didn't? Abel scored the lottery but Eve & Cain didn't. Caleb scored the lottery but the rest didn't.

    We cannot choose to subject ourselves to God's judgements at all.

    Rom 8:7* Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    Then don't lean on your carnal mind? This is why I picked the example God created in the story of Caleb. You, the entire MCC and the Children of Israel in that time say it was not possible to "possess the land". They, like you, made their excuses as to why God was mistaken, why God didn't know what he was doing. But Caleb, who had the same flesh, didn't "lean on his own understanding", he didn't make the same choice Adam and Cain made, he trusted in God's Word's over his own flesh. He was "spiritually circumcised", he "denied his flesh". He showed his faith by his works. He had the "mind of Christ". The idea that his name was picked by some secret lottery is not Biblical. That is how I test the spirits.

    You say that God knew what he would choose before he existed. That clearly means that when God was making Adam, and the world around him, He was designing him with the thought of what he was going to choose. If God had looked at the choice he made, and thought "Hmm, I don't like that. I'll change this in my design." Adam would have then chose differently, because he would have been a different creature. That says to me that God designed Adam with a purpose in mind.
    Yes, God has a purpose and He tells us over and over what that purpose is. That we keep His Commandments. It's just that most people don't really believe in God of the Bible, they just honor Him with their lips. If God wanted true examples of man and free will, why would he not let man make the natural choice? I agree that you and God think differently, and we are warned about changing or creating a god that fit's our small human mind. Paul explains this way of thinking.

    "Because that, when they knew God(had the Bible like you and I), they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"

    And again;For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Something you say can't be done without an invisible lottery that these must not have been lucky enough to win.

    God created these examples to show me the mind of natural man, to show me the choice I will naturally gravitate towards. Then He tells me to consider these examples and don't make the same choices as they did. How is that so hard to understand? I already know where my natural mind is going to go because God has shown me in the examples He created for me. I know I don't have to follow my fleshy desire because of all the many examples of those who didn't in His Word. You say these examples were fake, that they are just a result of some hidden lottery or a random name picked out of a hat. That the examples were not responsible for anything and that God simply picked them out of the blue. That is a doctrine you created, not God.

    "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted."

    But not in your religion, because we won't have a choice, Jesus either picks us or He doesn't. Lust has nothing to do with it.

    22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

    No choice you preach? And what are the crumbs if they are not the examples written for our admonition?


    So like Abel, Abraham, Noah, Daniel, Moses, Caleb, Joshua, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, Stephen, Paul, Peter, and on and on, I resist the natural, fleshy desire and I cling to God and His Words which are spiritual, and so did the Gentile above.

    19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

    Jesus taught the same thing.

    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    Joh 15:16* Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    And how did Jesus choose them?:

    Joh 17:9* I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Joh 6:44* No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    You are truly confused.

    I didn't choose Jesus as the Messiah, God did. I picked one of the two Choices God created for me. God promised me life if I turned to Him, Jesus is that life. If I walk even as He walked, I will receive the reward that He received. That's why He is call the "First fruit". I can't get to Jesus/life without God. And what does Jesus say?

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

    18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.


    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

    God's works created from the foundation of the world, Sabbaths, Clean and unclean, Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread through "That last great Day of the Feast". His Commandments that Abraham was blessed "BECAUSE" he kept them. These are God's Spiritual works, not my or any man's works. But the Righteousness of God that ALL His righteous examples walked in, and Jesus walked in and commanded that we walk in them as well.

    To love God is to do His Works, not our own. "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." But you and the entire MCC teach that they are impossible to keep. But that is just the serpent. Because God says, "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." And again; 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. "Deceitful above all things and desperately wicked"


    These are the fruits His people bring forth as they were the works of the "First fruit". These are the Righteousness of God. This is the narrow path that man has rejected. These are the works that show our faith in God. If a man doesn't follow this same path Jesus followed, whether directed by free will or not, there is no truth in them. You speak of faith but never works. You seem to claim righteousness by being careful to say "you are not righteous". I have always seen the influence of MC doctrine in your posts. I am hoping you will trust God and His Words over your own thinking. You have been given this power to choose from God already whether you believe it or not. I hope you will have faith in this truth.
    Last edited by Studyman; 04-15-2017 at 03:55 PM.

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    I tire of people that talk but can't hear....
    Lord we believe, help our unbelief. For you have given us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    What was the first choice that Adam made?
    I'm not sure, but he picked names for the animals which would I think qualify as a "choice", especially since none of the animals were satisfactory to him as a playmate and assistant.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    You say that God knew what he would choose before he existed. That clearly means that when God was making Adam, and the world around him, He was designing him with the thought of what he was going to choose. If God had looked at the choice he made, and thought "Hmm, I don't like that. I'll change this in my design." Adam would have then chose differently, because he would have been a different creature. That says to me that God designed Adam with a purpose in mind.
    Actually, wasn't Yehovah disappointed when he saw the fig leaves?:

    Gen_6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
    He was also regretful for setting up Saul as king:

    1Sa_15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
    Yehovah can't see the future choices of men, only the choices Yehovah himself makes, which he makes come to pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    If God looks forward in time and sees the choices of a man, what is he looking at? He is not a fortune teller. He is looking at his own creation. Everything that exists is made form things that are not. That is, God has made everything, and nothing functions in any other way than God created it to function. So when he is looking forward at Eve's choice, He is looking forward at his creation playing out. And if it is his creation and, seeing what it produces, he goes ahead with the creation, then He is purposing those things which he has created to come to pass. From the beginning the works were completed.
    Some say that everything is God and that God is all there is. Everything flows from him as irresistibly as the characters in a novel. Others see God's regret in making man as authentic. In the end all we have is what is written and our musings don't add anything to the understanding. That is, we can do "theology" but God says his treasures of wisdom and knowledge have been "hid in Christ" such that one can't deduce what God reveals. In other words, reasoning about the scriptures is not the same as understanding what they themselves say. Calvinism is philosophy based.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    And it's funny that you quote Romans 9, because I understand that chapter to be confirming that point.
    Romans 9 is about the temporary, partial, judicial hardening of the Jews toward their messiah, not about all men.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    God set before them the way to life, and the way to death.
    There was always a remnant who chose life.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    He said choose life, that you may live. What he did not say is: This is life eternal, that you might choose to do the law, and live. God giving the law to Israel is not a statement about how we attain life. Yes, if they could keep it they would find life. But could they? Did they? No. But along comes Jesus, and he says "My Father in heaven, he does the works. Of myself I can do nothing.", when everyone else was saying, "We have eternal life in the scriptures". It's no surprise to me that he was the first to fulfill it.
    There were many that were "holy ones" in Israel and Jesus ratified the new covenant with them and they have everlasting life despite never meeting of Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    But it seems you are saying that I should do it like Israel were trying to, rather than Jesus? It makes more sense to me to do it they way Jesus did it. To get to a point were we can say "Of myself I can do nothing. It is my Father who is working in me, both to will and to do of his good pleasure. He does the works." How can we say that while we are still in the state of mind: choose to do good?
    So are you saying that any choices that Jesus might have made were actually made from him by Yehovah? What about his prayers in Gethsemane? There he submits his will to God's will and is rewarded for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    Where is this church you keep speaking of? The day I hear that preached at a church, I'll probably leap up in the air and cry "Hallelujah!!". All I hear is "God will only do so much, we have to do the rest". "God wants us to be saved, but we have to choose to want it." And that is all I hear on this forum, when I comes to that question. And it has come to it often enough in my time here.
    Most evangelical Churches teach, I believe, that God wants the believer to "conduct your lives by the power of the breath/spirit". (I'm of the opinion that breath and spirit are synonyms). You seem to be building a "do it yourself" straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    Joh 15:16* Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
    The disciples, being part of the remnant, were spared the temporary, partial, judicial hardening of the Jews toward their messiah. THAT is what Romans 9 is about. But the choosing for the

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    And how did Jesus choose them?:

    Joh 17:9* I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
    Actually, Jesus didn't choose the disciples for "seeing" their messiah but rather for the work. The remnant were chosen to be spared the temporary, partial, judicial hardening of the Jews toward their messiah by God. Paul expressed his wish that he could be hardened toward Jesus so the "vessels of wrath" could receive their messiah but God had already made the choice:

    Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
    Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
    Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    Joh 6:44* No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Yes, as Paul says:

    Rom_10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    ...
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    If the bible is so clear that we are judged by our choices, why does it use the word "works" instead? If it meant choices, why not say choices? I know that you see the two words as interchangeable, but they are not.

    We cannot choose to subject ourselves to God's judgements at all.

    Rom 8:7* Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    The "carnal mind" or "the desires of the flesh" are one component of man that Paul anthropomorphizes as "Mr. Sin" that Paul says is at odds with his actual mind:

    Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
    "Mr. Sin" never misses an opportunity to abuse his slave:

    Rom 7:9 At one time I was alive without any connection to the Law. But when the rule was revealed, sin sprang to life,
    Rom 7:10 and I died. I found that the very rule that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
    Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing the opportunity provided by the rule, deceived me and used it to kill me.
    Rom 7:12 So then, the Law itself is holy, and the rule is holy, just, and good.
    Rom 7:13 Now, did something good bring me death? Of course not! But in order that sin might be recognized as being sin, it used something good to cause my death, so that through the rule, sin might become more exposed as being sinful than ever before.
    Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am merely human, sold as a slave to sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    We cannot even comprehend God's judgements:

    1Co 2:11* For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.*
    ...
    1Co 2:14* But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.*...
    There are things reserved for believers. The gospel, however, is designed in order to be receivable by regular old sinful humans:

    Isa_35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

    1Co_1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    It's a wonderful life

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