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Thread: Misinterpretation of 1 John 3:9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip2 View Post
    It was for me.

    One day?
    Just want to keep committing sin till...what?
    Until I hear, and gain faith by that hearing.

    Sorrow for my past sins.
    It is written...For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." ("2 Corinthians 7:10)
    Is it your guess that I have no sorrow for my sins, and no repentance?

    Pretend it is the year 1910.
    You have faith, or you wouldn't fly.
    You have "faith" now because planes have been around for a hundred years or so.
    I just finished telling you I don't have faith in planes.

    No faith was needed to fly the first planes, any more than today. The people who were flying them were pretty sure they might fly... maybe. They were knowingly taking a risk in flying them. There can be no thought of risk with faith. If we think for one second that it might fail, then it is not faith.

    God's word has been around for thousands of years.
    It hasn't dissipated an iota in all that time.
    Why?
    Because God causes it to prevail over realms and kingdoms, eras and fads.
    God's word has been around from before the foundation of the earth. It cannot dissipate, God does not need to keep it from dissipating.

    But how can I know that? What causes me to believe it? Because I read the words of those who believed it? Because I know the scriptures were written a long time ago? No. Many have read it and do not agree with me. There are many who know much more about it than I, but do not believe it.

    I wanted it to be true.
    I was searching for a way to please God.
    This is the part I don't understand. If you believe that it is as simple as having faith, and just doing it, why were you searching for a way to please God? God has never been cryptic about what pleases him.

    Clearly there was a point when you didn't have the faith you say you have today, and you found it after a search. This is exactly what I am trying to tell you. Faith is something to be found, not something that is at hand, the moment we decide to have it.

    It would be conjecture to reply to such a question.
    And herein lies the whole point of my argument against you. You are not able to decide how you would react to a person saying "You can be sinless if you believe and get baptised.", because you need more information about the situation. But you are happy to say to me "Why not "kill the old man with the affections and lusts"?", as though it is simply a matter of decision on my part, that I can make at any time.

    It wouldn't matter.
    When I heard the "good news", I acted on it then.
    What, were your ears made of better dirt than those who didn't hear? It matters a lot to me how we come to hear.

    Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

    1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lightbearer View Post
    This is as GOD would have us all. As the the Body of Christ, the temple of God, being that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. We as a HIS people. The sons and daughters of GOD are to shine through HIS glory as Moses did; but even more glorious (2Co 3:11).
    That is what I thought you meant, but wanted to be sure because "done away with" can be taken in more than one way. Thanks for the clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by lightbearer
    Quote Originally Posted by MM501
    When I hear "done away with" I think of 2 Cor.3:14 with Mark 15:38
    "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ."

    "And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom."
    2 Corinthians is speaking of another veil. That which was upon the face of Moses.
    I see a parallel.
    The veil of the temple separated the holy of holies to which the people could not enter. (Heb.9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all)
    The veil upon the face of Moses was there because the people could not bear to see the light.
    Both veils were necessary because of the flesh (carnality) of man.

    [14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
    [15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

    The veil is done away in Christ, a picture of which was the renting of the veil in the temple at his crucifixion.
    This veil upon the heart is the flesh (carnality) that must be taken away from the heart, it is the foreskin of the heart, it is that which prevents true intimacy with God, so one may truly "know" the LORD.

    Christ entered and then allowed us to enter.

    Heb.6
    [19] Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
    [20] Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    Heb.10
    [19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
    [20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

    The veil need no longer be upon our heart, our minds no longer need be blinded, we should be able to bear the light without need of a veil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip2 View Post
    That isn't biblical.
    It is written..."So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)
    You are justifying "lack of faith".
    So tell me, do you believe that hearing, as stated in the verse you quoted, comes by you reading your bible or someone preaching on it?
    It's reliant upon your will to believe?
    I don't.
    Read all you want, listen as long as you want but until God speaks to you, all you will have is head knowledge.
    That's what is meant by "and hearing by the word of God"
    You won't like this but if I wanted what you have I could have had it years ago.

    You and all of us were given power to think and make choices.
    And therein lies the problem.

    My choices are based on my love for God and for my neighbor.
    Ego is not a dirty word for you then? (Skyhooks 1975 Album)

    The sinner's choices are not.
    Anyone whose life is based on their 'right' choices is a sinner.


    You have positioned yourself perfectly to argue about your destruction at the final judgement.
    "It's all God's fault!"
    It's a pity that you present your argument from a position of such ignorance.

    And here I thought you didn't have any faith.
    Just an innocent mistake I guess.


    What a sucker I was.
    As long as it remains past tense you have no problem.


    That is obvious.
    Those not born of God still bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:8)
    Haven't you ever bought beautiful looking fruit that is rotten under the skin?
    When you get them home and put them to the test it becomes obvious that the beauty was skin deep.


    That is what the supplied scripture said.
    Sometimes you have to dig a little to see the truth.


    What has that got to do with your faith?
    Just that Paul said the difference between Adam and Jesus was that one listened intently to God, the other didn't. (Rom. 5:19)
    I guess Adam trusted his own judgement/will too.

    Typical derail tactic...usually.
    I'm not surprised you don't make the connection.

    Geoff.
    God cannot give us anything without (Him) first growing our faith to a point where our faith enables Him to issue forth the power to effect His desired result. (Rom. 4:16 revelation)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    Humility to start with I would say. Remembering that we are just wicked deceitful animals and letting God direct our footsteps instead of trusting our own thoughts.
    Yes, but that's not the first step, is it? If you told that to one of the atheists on this forum, what would they say to you?

    Eve could have turned and ran to her covering, her husband, before making a decision that involved disobedience, but she listened to her own mind, reasoned with her own mind. God gave her an escape from this temptation, she just didn't trust it. Her choice is an example for our admonition.
    I don't think she recognised the way of escape, if she even heard it, because she wasn't attentively listening to God. As you say, she listened to her own mind, and reasoned it out. I don't think there is room to hear God with that mind.

    Every day on this forum there is argument after argument about justification for disobedience. But little discussion about the Righteousness of God as spelled out in the Gospel of Christ.

    For instance...
    Nothing that I believe is an instance of that. I have never believed one can be justified in disobedience. One can be taken out of disobedience, and have their former disobedience washed clean. But while a person is in disobedience, they are not just. And for a long time it has been my view that the righteousness of man is of God, and I have expressed that many times. And also that man can be without sin (themselves, not because God looks at Jesus and pretends we are him).

    For instance you have been convinced that you can make no choice to humble yourself before God, that this choice must come from God "FIRST". Yet Jesus says to "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness". So a choice must be made. Do we follow the dictates of a Mainstream Church or do we humble our self and listen to no one else but God? It's easy to say we humble ourselves to God until we see the giants we all must face.
    Which mainstream church are you talking about? The churches I know of believe that they chose to follow God, and submit themselves, and humble themselves. I think if we ran a poll saying "Did you choose to follow God, or did God cause you to follow him?" the result would lean heavily on the first. Try asking people here the question "Why do you believe, when others do not?" and see what kind of answers you get.

    "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

    That says nothing at all about how we come to the point where we desire to seek it. It is a statement about the worth of seeking it. But no one can receive that statement if they do not first have the understanding of it, and faith in it, which comes from hearing.

    I have never made a choice to humble myself before God, and yet I have humbled myself before God, if only in part. I have done it because He has shown me, in part, who he is. He has led me to that understanding throughout my whole life. I can see it. I look back, and I do not see a series of good decisions that I made to get me to the point where I believe. Had I planned it myself, I would have never gotten here. I see a series of events that God put before me, to direct my steps, to make me who I am today. I am what I am because he has made me thus. I give all the glory of the little faith and humility that I have to God, and God alone. I put no weight on my ability to choose God, because I do not know God - CAN NOT know God - but by his spirit, which He gives to whosoever HE chooses. And He chose before I was born, before I had done good or evil; before I knew that he was.

    "30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. 31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we."

    The answer to your question is in this verse.
    The answer that you want (and just about every Christian I have ever talked about this to) you see in that verse. But the verse does not give the answer, it is written between the lines. That is, it is written in your mind.

    I know this because every time I talk about this stuff with someone, they run off a thousand and one verses where people are either following a command, or disobeying it. As though that shows the reason why they are doing so!

    Those people did not have faith in his words. They feared the people they were going against, and that fear out weighed their faith in the one giving the instruction. But why did they not have faith?

    Let me give you a verse that contains the answer:

    Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    (Note: the first verse is as important as the second.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    Is it your guess that I have no sorrow for my sins, and no repentance?
    Your sorrow is of the world, and worketh death. (2 Cor 7:10)

    God's word has been around from before the foundation of the earth. It cannot dissipate, God does not need to keep it from dissipating.
    There IS something you have faith in then.

    But how can I know that? What causes me to believe it? Because I read the words of those who believed it? Because I know the scriptures were written a long time ago? No. Many have read it and do not agree with me. There are many who know much more about it than I, but do not believe it.
    You know that, because you have faith in it.
    Not everyone wants to please God.

    This is the part I don't understand. If you believe that it is as simple as having faith, and just doing it, why were you searching for a way to please God? God has never been cryptic about what pleases him.
    He certainly wasn't hiding it from me, but I was hiding from it.

    Clearly there was a point when you didn't have the faith you say you have today, and you found it after a search. This is exactly what I am trying to tell you. Faith is something to be found, not something that is at hand, the moment we decide to have it.
    You incriminate yourself.
    God isn't hiding from anyone.
    Until you decide to serve God above all else you won't have faith.

    And herein lies the whole point of my argument against you. You are not able to decide how you would react to a person saying "You can be sinless if you believe and get baptised.", because you need more information about the situation. But you are happy to say to me "Why not "kill the old man with the affections and lusts"?", as though it is simply a matter of decision on my part, that I can make at any time.
    You can't blame anyone but yourself for your preference to rebel against God over serving Him.

    What, were your ears made of better dirt than those who didn't hear? It matters a lot to me how we come to hear.
    My ears are the same as other men's.
    My heart is different, though.

    Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
    More self incrimination?

    1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
    Just because the subway train's door opens, doesn't mean everyone will get on.
    The way to eternal life has been widely publicized for 20 centuries.
    It seems that it is you that refuses to "get on".
    "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (Ja 5:20)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    So tell me, do you believe that hearing, as stated in the verse you quoted, comes by you reading your bible or someone preaching on it?
    "Hearing" can't come by reading. Unless you are reading out loud.

    It's reliant upon your will to believe?
    I don't.
    Read all you want, listen as long as you want but until God speaks to you, all you will have is head knowledge.
    That's what is meant by "and hearing by the word of God"
    You won't like this but if I wanted what you have I could have had it years ago.
    There's the rub...you don't want it.

    That renders the rest of your post moot.
    "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (Ja 5:20)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip2 View Post
    Your sorrow is of the world, and worketh death. (2 Cor 7:10)
    So if my sorrow has worked repentance in me, then that must mean that the sorrow of the world works repentance. Either that, or you don't know the first thing about my sorrow.

    There IS something you have faith in then.

    You know that, because you have faith in it.
    Not everyone wants to please God.
    Maybe I do have faith in it, maybe not (which tells me I probably don't . I never said I had no faith at all. But if I have faith in it, it did not come from me.

    Those, who's desire it is to do the will of God, are lead by the spirit of God. The former is a result of the latter.

    He certainly wasn't hiding it from me, but I was hiding from it.
    You said you were searching for a way to please God, but you were hiding from the way you knew how. What was the thing that changed your attitude? Was it perhaps gaining faith in what you already knew was the answer?

    You incriminate yourself.
    God isn't hiding from anyone.
    Until you decide to serve God above all else you won't have faith.
    No, God is not hiding. Faith is "hiding", though. Do you honestly believe it is possible to faithlessly serve God above all else? Do you have an example from scripture of someone without faith in God, serving God completely?

    You can't blame anyone but yourself for your preference to rebel against God over serving Him.
    Nor am I in any way. I can only assume you can see your error now, given that you are avoiding addressing my concern.

    My ears are the same as other men's.
    My heart is different, though.
    In what way? Bigger? Stronger? Pumps more blood through your body? Have you shared the schematics with God, so he can have a go at making one?

    Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
    More self incrimination?
    It is accusing you, not me. If you had ears to hear.

    Just because the subway train's door opens, doesn't mean everyone will get on.
    The way to eternal life has been widely publicized for 20 centuries.
    It seems that it is you that refuses to "get on".
    There are many trains at the station, and I know many who have stepped onto your train, because they have read the screen and it says "This way to eternal life", and they have called out to me "Quick, Hayden! Get on, it's leaving!". But I won't listen to them. Instead, I will go to the station master and say to him "Please direct me to the train that leads to eternal life." And he will lead me to the correct train. I will not chose a train, I will go into the train that he points to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    There are many trains at the station, and I know many who have stepped onto your train, because they have read the screen and it says "This way to eternal life", and they have called out to me "Quick, Hayden! Get on, it's leaving!". But I won't listen to them. Instead, I will go to the station master and say to him "Please direct me to the train that leads to eternal life." And he will lead me to the correct train. I will not chose a train, I will go into the train that he points to.
    Interesting concept.
    Leads me to ask...
    What makes you think your eyes are capable of seeing what He points to?
    What makes you think your ears are capable of hearing Him?

    I'm not trying to be critical or judgmental but just (possibly) taking your position to another level...
    Is man not so helpless that God would have to carry him against his will and throw Him on the correct train (because what is in man that could possibly recognize what God is telling/showing him what to do or where to go)?

    Again, just trying to take your position and turn it against what you are saying (hopefully, in the spirit of seeking the truth and not one of dissension).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MM501 View Post
    Interesting concept.
    Leads me to ask...
    What makes you think your eyes are capable of seeing what He points to?
    What makes you think your ears are capable of hearing Him?

    I'm not trying to be critical or judgmental but just (possibly) taking your position to another level...
    Is man not so helpless that God would have to carry him against his will and throw Him on the correct train (because what is in man that could possibly recognize what God is telling/showing him what to do or where to go)?

    Again, just trying to take your position and turn it against what you are saying (hopefully, in the spirit of seeking the truth and not one of dissension).
    No, they are fair questions.

    First of all, my eyes/ears are only capable of doing what God has made them to do. My seeing/hearing God is completely dependent on if God is manifesting himself; whether he is making himself known to me. I wouldn't be able to seek out God if he was not making himself known.

    When God was telling Moses to go and speak to Pharaoh, Moses knew from experience that he was not good with words, so he did not believe he was capable of representing God to Pharaoh. A fair call, from a human perspective. God's reply to him was to ask him who it was who made his mouth. This says to me that our capability is what God makes it. So yes, we are capable of hearing God, but according to his will, not our own.

    Of myself, I am not capable of getting to that correct train, because of myself I do only the desire of my flesh. Which might be to get on the train with the rest of the people, out of fear. Or maybe to ignore the station all together, and pursue some other desire.

    It is my opinion that the only way to attain eternal life is by the grace of God working in us. Which is not him dragging us around but, like He might have done with Moses' speech, giving us the ability to do His work. But the fundamental point is that it is His work, not ours (even though we work the works). If it is him that gives us the ability (and he has given us all of our ability), then it must be by faith that we attain a perfect synergy with him, knowing that he gave us the ability for his purpose.

    Knowing this, but not having achieved it, we have no other option but to seek the voice of God, that we might hear him. Because it is only by hearing him that we can have faith in him. And if we do not have faith in him, like with Moses, God will not be able to display his grace in us, at least not in the way it was displayed in Jesus.

    And, of course, Jesus himself is our example of a man who heard God, because he listened for him, to the rejection of his own will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip2 View Post

    Sorrow for my past sins.
    It is written...For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." ("2 Corinthians 7:10)
    You are calling the Cross, ineffectual, and God a liar... For, if you utilized the blood of Jesus as found in 1 John 1:9, as God's basis for cleansing and forgiveness. The sorrow for ones sins is lifted and gives us forgetting of what is behind.


    1 John 1:7-10

    But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus,
    his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all
    unrighteousness.
    If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.



    You should be REJOICING in God's provision to be made free of sin!

    The sorrow that 2 Corinthians speaks of? Is about God's process of our repentance (the changing of our thinking) that takes place when the Word enters our hearts and transforms us out from our old ways of the world we once knew.. the way of life we had been inculcated into. That sorrow (sorrow as God would have it) is like that one mourning for a friend who just died. For, our old friend, was our old self!

    There is sorrow God causes because this inward death that takes place demands a time of loneliness and pain as we find we can no longer can relate to the world in a way that once caused us pleasure and comfort. That sorrow God caused reveals the spiritual process that takes place demanding that we persevere onward in our growing in grace and knowledge of Christ... While in sorrow the new man is being formed in us making us able to take on the new life that gives us a new kind of stability and joy according to the new way of thinking that the Spirit brings to life in wise believers... Sadly though, willfully ignorant believers will cling to their own way of thinking. And will do so by manipulating the Word as a means to fit their own desired outcome ending in stupidity. That is where we get false doctrinal teachings. Which is arrogance personified in the name of Christ!



    2 Corinthians 3:17-18

    Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is
    freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lordís
    glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory,
    which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

    We are not to have sorrow over our past sins! To think so is to misread what the Word is telling us. and is a denial that Jesus took that very punishment upon Himself while on the Cross!

    If we simply acknowledged our sins at the time we recognized them! Then, the blood of Jesus purifies us, and God forgives.



    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all
    unrighteousness.
    1 John 1:9


    To continue to sorrow endlessly? Is likened to saying God really did not cleanse and forgive when we confessed our sins to Him,,, But instead, God put us on probation. Thus making us? The authors of our own salvation. That is having sorrow according to arrogant stupidity. Believers like that are a pain to be around. A sorrow to bear.
    God has two dwellings:
    one in heaven, and the other
    in a meek and thankful heart.
    Izaak Walton
    (1593-1683)




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