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Thread: Misinterpretation of 1 John 3:9

  1. #1161

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post

    What is required for a man to have faith?
    Everyone has faith and works to show that faith. The question should be; "What is required to have faith in Jesus"? Many religious people claim to have faith in Jesus, but He was clear that not everyone who said Lord, Lord, actually knows Him. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them". So it is our works that show our faith, or allegiance to whoever we have faith in. A good question to ask is; Do we have Faith in Jesus and His instruction, or the Many who come in His name that claim to represent Him?

  2. #1162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    Everyone has faith and works to show that faith. The question should be; "What is required to have faith in Jesus"? Many religious people claim to have faith in Jesus, but He was clear that not everyone who said Lord, Lord, actually knows Him. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them". So it is our works that show our faith, or allegiance to whoever we have faith in. A good question to ask is; Do we have Faith in Jesus and His instruction, or the Many who come in His name that claim to represent Him?
    Dear sm,
    And who were the first among those "who come in his name that claim to represent him"? And did they not prophecy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles"? (Mt 7:22)

  3. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    What is required for a man to have faith, Philip2 and GeneZ? What causes a man to believe?
    Hope.
    I heard a message, saw it's results in others, and had faith it would work in me too.

    Philip2, you say that it is as simple as choosing to have faith, and then as a result sin will be put to death. Correct me if I am wrong, but I can only assume that you have done that.
    I can't remember ever saying that, but in a nutshell, it is correct.
    Have you ever flown in a plane?
    When did you have faith that it would actually get up into the air?
    I'm sure you looked around at all the others who were boarding the plane and figured they knew something you didn't, and because they believed, you did too.
    And yes, I have done "that".

    If so, at what stage did you decide to gain faith? And why did you not do it the day before? Or the year before? Why did you not do it the moment that you had conscious thought, as a child? Or was it the very moment that you heard of Jesus that you did it?
    I have never heard it expressed in this manner before, that is..."gained faith".
    When I saw others espousing the reality of "their" belief, and saw them walking the walk, I knew that I could too.

    I had believed that there was a Jesus, and that He had died for my sins, since I was a little kid, but had never been told that I could serve Him without fault.
    When I first heard I could please Him without stumbling, backsliding, erring, trespassing, sinning ever again, I was all in.
    It took about an hour between hearing I could be perfect and getting baptized to kill the old self.

    I look back at the circumstances of that first meeting with the church and see God using things like my moving to California, getting fired from a job, getting me a new job at a certain place, a dead car, walking to work/home, and my interest in the false doctrine of an early rapture, to bring about my meeting a guy who was reading a bible at work.
    After a short discussion, he invited me to a church meeting that night, and offered me a ride there.
    Thank God!
    "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (Ja 5:20)

  4. #1164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Oh but it does matter, for one is known by their words and their work; whether they be of God or no. If not of God then separate from them lest you be snared by their deceitful words.
    It doesn't matter who brings the message.
    The message is the important thing.

    One can quote scripture til the cows come home but it matters little if the words contained within are not heard.
    Then you see my point.
    The message, not the messenger.

    You are not listening to him. He believes that God has not grown his faith to that point yet. He believes God gives it... not something we grasp by willing it.
    His "belief" is wrong.
    He isn't a puppet without any will.
    He is walking right into the false doctrine that it is God's fault for the destruction most will garner at the last judgement.
    It is on you to act responsibly toward God.
    Nobody to pat you an the head saying "nice try, you'll get it next time".

    You ask if I am willing to live without sin as though it were within my power to grasp it.
    Nobody will make the decision for you.
    Your salvation, or destruction, are in your hands.

    The man whose faith came by hearing, of whose faith we are to be partakers through hearing him, spoke nothing of living by our will, but rather by hearing every word that proceeds from the Father shall we have life.
    Here is a "word that proceeds from the Father"...Is it your will to serve Me or not?
    Act accordingly.

    Really?
    Accomplish (verb)
    1. Cause to happen; complete successfully.
    2. To gain with effort.
    (WordWeb)
    Your words give you away.
    Yes, really...
    Do this...repent of sin, get baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of your past sins. Do this and you will receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

    Aren't you glad that God made such an easy way to accomplish the death of the old man and rebirth of a man reborn of Godly seed?
    "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (Ja 5:20)

  5. #1165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    Everyone has faith and works to show that faith. The question should be; "What is required to have faith in Jesus"? Many religious people claim to have faith in Jesus, but He was clear that not everyone who said Lord, Lord, actually knows Him. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them". So it is our works that show our faith, or allegiance to whoever we have faith in. A good question to ask is; Do we have Faith in Jesus and His instruction, or the Many who come in His name that claim to represent Him?
    Yes, true. But I am trying to get at a deeper issue. Assuming true faith, what is required for a man to have faith in Jesus?

    Because all heard the gospel, and many did not believe. What would have made them believe?

  6. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip2 View Post
    Hope.
    I have hope. I have full hope that I will one day be without sin, and that I will have faith in God, and that I will know God and his son Jesus. I can honestly say that I do not doubt it. So hope is not my issue.

    I heard a message, saw it's results in others, and had faith it would work in me too.
    Many have heard the message, have they not? Have all believed? What has set you apart?

    I can't remember ever saying that, but in a nutshell, it is correct.
    Have you ever flown in a plane?
    When did you have faith that it would actually get up into the air?
    I'm sure you looked around at all the others who were boarding the plane and figured they knew something you didn't, and because they believed, you did too.
    And yes, I have done "that".
    I have never had faith that a plane would get up into the air. I just didn't think about it. If I did think about it, there would be nothing I could tell myself to convince myself that it was going to get up in the air. I simply do not know. I have no reason to have faith in a plane. Some planes do not get up into the air, so what would give me faith in them? Planes have no power of themselves to prevent any incident, no matter what. Neither do the pilots. So even if I were able to decide to have faith in them (not possible), my faith would be misplaced.

    I have never heard it expressed in this manner before, that is..."gained faith".
    When I saw others espousing the reality of "their" belief, and saw them walking the walk, I knew that I could too.

    I had believed that there was a Jesus, and that He had died for my sins, since I was a little kid, but had never been told that I could serve Him without fault.
    When I first heard I could please Him without stumbling, backsliding, erring, trespassing, sinning ever again, I was all in.
    It took about an hour between hearing I could be perfect and getting baptized to kill the old self.
    So the principle matter is, you believed you were able to be free of sin when you heard that it was possible. What caused you to believe it? Was it the hearing of the gospel, that many others heard and did not believe?

    I look back at the circumstances of that first meeting with the church and see God using things like my moving to California, getting fired from a job, getting me a new job at a certain place, a dead car, walking to work/home, and my interest in the false doctrine of an early rapture, to bring about my meeting a guy who was reading a bible at work.
    After a short discussion, he invited me to a church meeting that night, and offered me a ride there.
    Thank God!
    Now think back 10-20 years before that. If someone had walked past you in the street and said to you "Hey you! Guess what, you are able to serve Jesus perfectly. Just get baptised." and then walked on. Would you have reacted in the same way as you explain above? Why, or why not?

    Or do you think that it might have been because God led you through your life, by presenting different opportunities/restrictions? That he brought you to that exact moment in time, where you had a certain mindset, and a certain understanding, and personality, and knowledge. And brought that man to you, who had a certain personality and understanding. And showed you a group of people who were demonstrating the thing that you would come to have faith in?

  7. #1167

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    Yes, true. But I am trying to get at a deeper issue. Assuming true faith, what is required for a man to have faith in Jesus?

    Because all heard the gospel, and many did not believe. What would have made them believe?
    Humility to start with I would say. Remembering that we are just wicked deceitful animals and letting God direct our footsteps instead of trusting our own thoughts. Eve could have turned and ran to her covering, her husband, before making a decision that involved disobedience, but she listened to her own mind, reasoned with her own mind. God gave her an escape from this temptation, she just didn't trust it. Her choice is an example for our admonition.

    Every day on this forum there is argument after argument about justification for disobedience. But little discussion about the Righteousness of God as spelled out in the Gospel of Christ.

    For instance you have been convinced that you can make no choice to humble yourself before God, that this choice must come from God "FIRST". Yet Jesus says to "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness". So a choice must be made. Do we follow the dictates of a Mainstream Church or do we humble our self and listen to no one else but God? It's easy to say we humble ourselves to God until we see the giants we all must face.

    "30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. 31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we."

    The answer to your question is in this verse.

  8. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip2 View Post
    It doesn't matter who brings the message.
    The message is the important thing.
    It matters if the messenger comes with a message that is not of God because the messenger doesn't know the true God.
    That's one of the main reasons why so many are in error, so many speak from their own understanding and their followers look to them for guidance.

    Then you see my point.
    The message, not the messenger.
    Yes, but do you get my point. The message is heard not by reading or hearing a man speak, it comes by the spirit of God. If one doesn't know the one true God, who or what are they placing their trust in?

    His "belief" is wrong.
    He isn't a puppet without any will.
    He is walking right into the false doctrine that it is God's fault for the destruction most will garner at the last judgement.
    Jesus said: "Not my will but yours be done", he also said: "of myself I can do nothing" and "I only speak the words I have heard of my Father, he doeth the works".

    Can one have the understanding that comes from God in any given situation? Can one faithfully act on that understanding claiming that of their own will they do these things? Jonathan Edwards defined the will as the mind thinking. I fully concur. Can you hear from God, trust him as having provided the way out of temptation and then proceed to justify yourself as having chosen to do what you heard? Can faith exist in that scenario? I say, not if you know what faith is!

    It is on you to act responsibly toward God.
    No. Absolutely not. I say it is an action produced by faith which is a gift from God.

    Nobody to pat you an the head saying "nice try, you'll get it next time".
    That scenario can only be the result of choosing; the mind having considered and caused an action of the will. Faith is absent if that is the case.
    God empowers what is done through faith in what is heard of him.
    One of the best examples: Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.


    Nobody will make the decision for you.
    Your salvation, or destruction, are in your hands.
    Absolutely false.
    If I have faith my decisions and salvation are in the hands of God. I wouldn't have it any other way.


    Here is a "word that proceeds from the Father"...Is it your will to serve Me or not?
    Act accordingly.
    Then we don't have the same Father, you and I. (My brother once said: "your will not mine be done")

    Yes, really...
    Do this...repent of sin, get baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of your past sins. Do this and you will receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
    So simple. You do all this and when you have accomplished it God will give you the Holy Ghost...

    Aren't you glad that God made such an easy way to accomplish the death of the old man and rebirth of a man reborn of Godly seed?
    Has it not ever occurred to you that it was an act of the will that brought death in the first place?

    Geoff.
    God cannot give us anything without (Him) first growing our faith to a point where our faith enables Him to issue forth the power to effect His desired result. (Rom. 4:16 revelation)

  9. #1169
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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden View Post
    I have hope. I have full hope that I will one day be without sin, and that I will have faith in God, and that I will know God and his son Jesus. I can honestly say that I do not doubt it.
    So hope is not my issue.
    It was for me.

    One day?
    Just want to keep committing sin till...what?

    Many have heard the message, have they not? Have all believed? What has set you apart?
    Sorrow for my past sins.
    It is written...For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." ("2 Corinthians 7:10)

    I have never had faith that a plane would get up into the air. I just didn't think about it. If I did think about it, there would be nothing I could tell myself to convince myself that it was going to get up in the air. I simply do not know. I have no reason to have faith in a plane. Some planes do not get up into the air, so what would give me faith in them? Planes have no power of themselves to prevent any incident, no matter what. Neither do the pilots. So even if I were able to decide to have faith in them (not possible), my faith would be misplaced.
    Pretend it is the year 1910.
    You have faith, or you wouldn't fly.
    You have "faith" now because planes have been around for a hundred years or so.
    God's word has been around for thousands of years.
    It hasn't dissipated an iota in all that time.
    Why?
    Because God causes it to prevail over realms and kingdoms, eras and fads.

    So the principle matter is, you believed you were able to be free of sin when you heard that it was possible. What caused you to believe it? Was it the hearing of the gospel, that many others heard and did not believe?
    I wanted it to be true.
    I was searching for a way to please God.

    Now think back 10-20 years before that. If someone had walked past you in the street and said to you "Hey you! Guess what, you are able to serve Jesus perfectly. Just get baptised." and then walked on. Would you have reacted in the same way as you explain above? Why, or why not?
    It would be conjecture to reply to such a question.

    Or do you think that it might have been because God led you through your life, by presenting different opportunities/restrictions? That he brought you to that exact moment in time, where you had a certain mindset, and a certain understanding, and personality, and knowledge. And brought that man to you, who had a certain personality and understanding. And showed you a group of people who were demonstrating the thing that you would come to have faith in?
    It wouldn't matter.
    When I heard the "good news", I acted on it then.
    "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (Ja 5:20)

  10. #1170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    It matters if the messenger comes with a message that is not of God because the messenger doesn't know the true God.
    That's one of the main reasons why so many are in error, so many speak from their own understanding and their followers look to them for guidance.
    People follow the things that offer them the most comfort.
    If the comfort is provided by things that are unGodly you know they are not of God.
    Made me think of that group in California that killed themselves to ride on some comet.
    Suicide is murder, and not of God.

    Yes, but do you get my point. The message is heard not by reading or hearing a man speak, it comes by the spirit of God. If one doesn't know the one true God, who or what are they placing their trust in?
    That isn't biblical.
    It is written..."So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)
    You are justifying "lack of faith".

    Jesus said: "Not my will but yours be done", he also said: "of myself I can do nothing" and "I only speak the words I have heard of my Father, he doeth the works".
    Can one have the understanding that comes from God in any given situation? Can one faithfully act on that understanding claiming that of their own will they do these things? Jonathan Edwards defined the will as the mind thinking. I fully concur. Can you hear from God, trust him as having provided the way out of temptation and then proceed to justify yourself as having chosen to do what you heard? Can faith exist in that scenario? I say, not if you know what faith is!
    You and all of us were given power to think and make choices.
    My choices are based on my love for God and for my neighbor.
    The sinner's choices are not.

    No. Absolutely not. I say it is an action produced by faith which is a gift from God.
    You have positioned yourself perfectly to argue about your destruction at the final judgement.
    "It's all God's fault!"
    And here I thought you didn't have any faith.
    What a sucker I was.

    Then we don't have the same Father, you and I. (My brother once said: "your will not mine be done")
    That is obvious.
    Those not born of God still bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:8)

    So simple. You do all this and when you have accomplished it God will give you the Holy Ghost...
    That is what the supplied scripture said.

    Has it not ever occurred to you that it was an act of the will that brought death in the first place?
    What has that got to do with your faith?

    Typical derail tactic...usually.
    "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (Ja 5:20)

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