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Thread: The he-goat and ram in Daniel 8

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    Actually, you are one whose hearing is as described in these scriptures.

    Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    You are falling back on your dogma that these events are in the past and not during the end times.
    Read my last couple of posts to 2ndpillar to further understand my perspective corroborated by scriptures.
    Really:


    Originally Posted by ludwig:
    The four beasts in Dan 7 are all the worlds nations that make up four different type socioeconomic systems. In Dan 7 they are separate, but in Revelation 13 they are joined together after the fourth beast rises from the sea.
    Where does it say that? And what about the history of the kingdoms that rule over Israel in succession? Plus, in addition to that, I'm now asking what about the 5 kingdoms mentioned in chapter 2? Do they have any relevance to the Dan 7-12?


    Originally Posted by ludwig:
    Did Alexander the great traverse the whole earth from the west without touching the ground (Dan 8:5)?
    Is the beast in Daniel 8 really a he-goat?


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Did Alexander the great secede into four horns after conquering Media and Persia (Dan 8:8)?
    Didn't I just say that along with the other facts I presented?


    Originally Posted by ludwig:
    Who was the little horn that emerged from Alexander who shall destroy wonderfully, and prosper, while destroying the mighty and holy people (Dan 8:24), which correlates with the little horn wearing out the saints in Daniel 7:25?
    Didn't I specifically point that out? And why are you dodging the facts? Why are you ignoring the history?


    Originally Posted by ludwig:
    According to Daniel 7:27, following the ousting of the little horn and beast, the kingdom is then awarded to the saints thus indicating the end of Satan's world order.
    What was the end that came to the little horn after he was broken without hand in Daniel 8:25?
    Not so fast, not until you acknowledge the historic facts I gave you, that you're choosing to ignore for your agenda.


    Originally Posted by ludwig:
    There are many historical events that can be made to fit somewhat with the criteria of events in Daniel 7 through 12 and Revelation 13, but they do not fit all the criteria.
    This is why the Lord has provided us all this correlating information along with repeating numerous times that these events regard the end times.
    You are trying to be smart and not acting clever. You didn't answer my questions, proving yourself to be a propagandist.



    So, who's falling back on dogma? I was simply asking you questions. Why can't you answer them?

    Last edited by precepts; 02-18-2017 at 04:58 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post


    Where does it say that?
    You have to put one and one together. As the beasts in Daniel 7 are during the end times, they would then be related with those of the four horsemen in Revelation 6 that are during the end times.
    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    And what about the history of the kingdoms that rule over Israel in succession?
    What about them? they do not meet numerous criteria, as I have pointed out, but you refuse to acknowledge.
    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Plus, in addition to that, I'm now asking what about the 5 kingdoms mentioned in chapter 2? Do they have any relevance to the Dan 7-12?
    It does have relevance to the end time of Satan's socioeconomic systems on earth, but the five kingdoms in Dan 2 are past as the Lords kingdom was set up during the Roman empire.
    Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    Right now we see the world's socioeconomic systems in chaos and on the brink of collapse as depicted of the four horsemen in Revelation 6.
    Soon, Satan along with his angels will be cast out of heaven, at which time he will make his last stand by setting up the system of the beast.
    It is when the Lord destroys Satans last stand, when Daniel 2:44 is fulfilled.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Is the beast in Daniel 8 really a he-goat?
    You are asking me to repeat myself. I have already shown where the he goat is a member of the fourth beast with ten horns.


    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Didn't I just say that along with the other facts I presented?
    Your response about the four seceded horns representing four generals under Alexander is grasping at straws. Is the Lord explaining trivialities in history as the four horns?



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Didn't I specifically point that out? And why are you dodging the facts? Why are you ignoring the history?
    It is you who is dodging questions by spinning your responses into something I did not ask.
    I asked you who was the little horn in Daniel 8, who is also the little horn in Daniel 7:25 who wears out the saints, as this is an end time event according to Daniel 8:17 & 19?



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Not so fast, not until you acknowledge the historic facts I gave you, that you're choosing to ignore for your agenda.
    Your response about Alexander does not meet the facts I posted to you, which you are evading.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    You are trying to be smart and not acting clever. You didn't answer my questions, proving yourself to be a propagandist.
    You should not bring up false accusations; it is the devil who accuses the brethren day and night before the Lord (Revelation 12:10).

    Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    So, who's falling back on dogma? I was simply asking you questions. Why can't you answer them?
    I have answered them; it's just that you can't hear them because they contradict your false faith in these things representing BC events.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    You have to put one and one together. As the beasts in Daniel 7 are during the end times, they would then be related with those of the four horsemen in Revelation 6 that are during the end times.
    Which one and ones? And what about Dan 2 beast kingdoms?


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    What about them? they do not meet numerous criteria, as I have pointed out, but you refuse to acknowledge.
    What numerous criteria don't they meet?


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    It does have relevance to the end time of Satan's socioeconomic systems on earth, but the five kingdoms in Dan 2 are past as the Lords kingdom was set up during the Roman empire.
    Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    Question: Who then are these 5 kingdoms? And didn't you say earlier that Christ kingdom wasn't set up yet, the reason why you interpreted Dan 7 to be future?


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Right now we see the world's socioeconomic systems in chaos and on the brink of collapse as depicted of the four horsemen in Revelation 6.
    Soon, Satan along with his angels will be cast out of heaven, at which time he will make his last stand by setting up the system of the beast.
    I guess you think this is a game, because you just said the 5 kingdoms in Dan 2 are past, that Christ kingdom was set up after the 5th kingdom:
    the five kingdoms in Dan 2 are past as the Lords kingdom was set up during the Roman empire.
    How do you figure Christ kingdom being set up during the Roman empire 2,000 yrs ago and Satan is still to come? The time between Christ kingdom being set up and Satan's attack is a 1,000 yrs.



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    It is when the Lord destroys Satans last stand, when Daniel 2:44 is fulfilled.
    You just said during the Roman empire. And when was Dan 7:17-27 fulfilled?



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    You are asking me to repeat myself. I have already shown where the he goat is a member of the fourth beast with ten horns.
    You asked me if Alexander the great moved without touching the ground to be the he-goat, and I asked you if the beast in Dan 8 is really a he-goat that comes without touching the ground. You can't dodge this one, friend.


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Your response about the four seceded horns representing four generals under Alexander is grasping at straws. Is the Lord explaining trivialities in history as the four horns?
    You asked, "Did Alexander the great secede into four horns after conquering Media and Persia (Dan 8:8)?" And the answer was yes! Alexander representing the great horn was broken, from which came up 4 horns, his four generals. And here's a nugget. Dan 8:9 does not say the little horn comes up among 10 horns or even among the four horns even, it says he came out from one of the four horns.

    Who do the horns represent now? Men. Whom did the ram's two horn represent? Cyrus and Darius. Whom did the he-goat horn represent? Alexander the great. So who do the 4 horns and the little horn represent? if not Alexander the great's 4 generals and one of their descendant. the Greek little horn?

    Now that being said, whom do the 10 horns on the 4th beast in Dan 7 represent? And the text is very clear, Dan 7:24, kings/men, the first 10 Roman kings. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. The prophecies fits the history to a tee.



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    iIt is you who is dodging questions by spinning your responses into something I did not ask.
    I asked you who was the little horn in Daniel 8, who is also the little horn in Daniel 7:25 who wears out the saints, as this is an end time event according to Daniel 8:17 & 19?
    I didn't dodge the question. I told you until you acknowledge the historical facts that I posted I wasn't going to go any further. You had totally ignored my point of the Macabees claiming to have cleanse the temple of the Abomination of Desolation, a historical fact pointing to the fact that the Greek little horn was indeed a descendant of the "king of the north," one of the four historical horns/generals that divided Alexander's kingdom into four.



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Your response about Alexander does not meet the facts I posted to you, which you are evading.
    Evaded? You asked if Alexander moved without touching the ground, like the he-goat in Dan 8, and my response was is the beast in Dan 8 really a he-goat. You know the answer was no. So if he is not a he-goat, does the beast in Dan 8 have to move without touching the ground, and the answer is no, it is all symbolic, but you don't want to understand that. Your question/reason was as simple and absurd as mine.



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    You should not bring up false accusations; it is the devil who accuses the brethren day and night before the Lord (Revelation 12:10).
    Trees are known by their fruits. When I first responded to your post, I posted the fact that the great horn was the first king of Greece, not an end time event, but still you chose to ignore the fact and moved on. What else am I to think if I provide facts that are ignored. The great horn, scripture says/proves, was the first "king" of Greece, not a future military force.


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    It is only you that can judge, regardless of you ignoring scripted facts for your private interpretation, but I'm the accuser of the brethren.

    Try their spirits!



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    I have answered them; it's just that you can't hear them because they contradict your false faith in these things representing BC events.
    Only now you attempted to answer them. Your first response was that I am stuck in my dogma accusation. This is a debate. Dialogue is required, and now we might be getting somewhere, if you're for real.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Which one and ones?
    The kingdoms in Daniel 7 and 8 are in the end times (1), and the kingdoms in Revelation 6 are in the end times (1), and so unless we are talking about different bunches of kingdoms during the same end times, they are then the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    And what about Dan 2 beast kingdoms?
    Either you are playing games, or you cannot see that I answered you in my last post about the five kingdoms in Dan 2 being in the past, but extending their influence to the end times.
    Let me elaborate a little further. The fourth kingdom which is Rome from where the Lord sets up His kingdom (Dan 2:44), is a kingdom of iron who breaks others in pieces (Dan 2:40), and as such its system is comparable to the fourth beast in Daniel 7:7 during the end times who has great iron teeth and devours and breaks in pieces.

    Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
    Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    What numerous criteria don't they meet?
    This is what I mean when I say you cannot hear. Below is copy of the criteria from # 95 post.
    Did Alexander the great traverse the whole earth from the west without touching the ground (Dan 8:5)?

    Did Alexander the great secede into four horns after conquering Media and Persia (Dan 8:8)?

    Who was the little horn that emerged from Alexander who shall destroy wonderfully, and prosper, while destroying the mighty and holy people (Dan 8:24), which correlates with the little horn wearing out the saints in Daniel 7:25?

    According to Daniel 7:27, following the ousting of the little horn and beast, the kingdom is then awarded to the saints thus indicating the end of Satan's world order.
    What was the end that came to the little horn after he was broken without hand in Daniel 8:25?



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Question: Who then are these 5 kingdoms? And didn't you say earlier that Christ kingdom wasn't set up yet, the reason why you interpreted Dan 7 to be future?
    We know from Daniel chapter two that the first kingdom is Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar, and we know the fifth kingdom (the fourth after Nebuchadnezzar's) is Rome
    according to Dan 2:44.
    The three kingdoms in between would then be those who were around between Nebuchadnezzar and Rome. The Greeks would have been one. It's anyone's guess who the other two would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    I guess you think this is a game, because you just said the 5 kingdoms in Dan 2 are past, that Christ kingdom was set up after the 5th kingdom:
    How do you figure Christ kingdom being set up during the Roman empire 2,000 yrs ago and Satan is still to come? The time between Christ kingdom being set up and Satan's attack is a 1,000 yrs.
    The five specific kingdoms in Daniel 2 are past with the last of the five kingdoms representing Rome.
    The Lord almighty set up His kingdom through Jesus Christ during the time Rome was the predominant kingdom on earth.




    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    You just said during the Roman empire. And when was Dan 7:17-27 fulfilled?
    Either you are continuing to play games, or you really cannot understand.
    The Lords kingdom was installed through Jesus Christ during the fifth kingdom mentioned in Daniel 2. The kingdoms (beasts) in Daniel 7 are today and have the characteristics of the kingdoms from back then, as I have provided an example of Rome and the fourth beast.




    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    You asked me if Alexander the great moved without touching the ground to be the he-goat, and I asked you if the beast in Dan 8 is really a he-goat that comes without touching the ground. You can't dodge this one, friend.
    And I answered you, but you still can't hear.
    The he goat with the notable horn (its military), who traverses the whole earth from the west without touching the ground to destroy what today are the lands of Iran, Iraq, and parts of Syria, utilizes its notable air force to completely destroy these nations.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    You asked, "Did Alexander the great secede into four horns after conquering Media and Persia (Dan 8:8)?" And the answer was yes! Alexander representing the great horn was broken, from which came up 4 horns, his four generals. And here's a nugget. Dan 8:9 does not say the little horn comes up among 10 horns or even among the four horns even, it says he came out from one of the four horns.
    You're right; Daniel 7:8 and 20 does refer to the little horn as coming among the ten horns. However, in reference to the same little horn Daniel 7:24 describe him rising up after the ten horns. We then see that the little horn coming among the beast with ten horns is the same as his rising from the ten horns.
    And here's a little nougat for you: The little horn in Daniel 8:9 we also see described coming out from one of the he goats four horns.

    Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
    Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
    Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Who do the horns represent now? Men. Whom did the ram's two horn represent? Cyrus and Darius. Whom did the he-goat horn represent? Alexander the great. So who do the 4 horns and the little horn represent? if not Alexander the great's 4 generals and one of their descendant. the Greek little horn?
    In the bible horns are usually used as a metaphor for a military force. I've explained this to you this before, and I am getting very tired of repeating myself.
    You are still bent on your dogma about the he goat representing Alexander the great and the four horns representing four of his generals. This does not meet the criteria in scriptures I previously posted.
    Answer me this: Did Alexander go in with one general and come back with four generals?

    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Now that being said, whom do the 10 horns on the 4th beast in Dan 7 represent? And the text is very clear, Dan 7:24, kings/men, the first 10 Roman kings. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. The prophecies fits the history to a tee.
    I've already explained this to you.
    The current G-7 members are the seven heads of the beast. It's member head with the notable horn (military) after seceding into four nations will then comprise ten horns, but still only have one seat among the seven heads.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    I didn't dodge the question. I told you until you acknowledge the historical facts that I posted I wasn't going to go any further. You had totally ignored my point of the Macabees claiming to have cleanse the temple of the Abomination of Desolation, a historical fact pointing to the fact that the Greek little horn was indeed a descendant of the "king of the north," one of the four historical horns/generals that divided Alexander's kingdom into four.
    Who cares about the Macabees and their claims. They do not meet the criteria about the he goat I've posted and so I do not acknowledge them. It is you who are ignoring scriptures because of your dogma.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Evaded? You asked if Alexander moved without touching the ground, like the he-goat in Dan 8, and my response was is the beast in Dan 8 really a he-goat. You know the answer was no. So if he is not a he-goat, does the beast in Dan 8 have to move without touching the ground, and the answer is no, it is all symbolic, but you don't want to understand that. Your question/reason was as simple and absurd as mine.
    You say Gods Word about the he-goat not toughing the ground to annihilate Media and Persia is symbolic, whereas I say Air force.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Trees are known by their fruits. When I first responded to your post, I posted the fact that the great horn was the first king of Greece, not an end time event, but still you chose to ignore the fact and moved on. What else am I to think if I provide facts that are ignored. The great horn, scripture says/proves, was the first "king" of Greece, not a future military force.
    You still choose to spin Daniel 8:17 & 19 that claim these as end times events into something other than end time events, whereas I choose to believe the Lords Word that these are end time events.


    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    It is only you that can judge, regardless of you ignoring scripted facts for your private interpretation, but I'm the accuser of the brethren. Try their spirits!
    Try the spirits, but do not accuse them of being propagandists.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    The kingdoms in Daniel 7 and 8 are in the end times (1), and the kingdoms in Revelation 6 are in the end times (1), and so unless we are talking about different bunches of kingdoms during the same end times, they are then the same.
    You are not making sense. You said, "The four beasts in Dan 7 are all the worlds nations that make up four different type socioeconomic systems." To which I asked where do you find that in scripture. To which you replied, "You have to put one and one together." To which I asked, "Which one and one?" Where in scripture even implies the four beast kingdoms in Dan 7 are "all the world's nations that make up the four different type socioeconomic systems"? Where are those one and ones?


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Either you are playing games, or you cannot see that I answered you in my last post about the five kingdoms in Dan 2 being in the past, but extending their influence to the end times.
    Let me elaborate a little further. The fourth kingdom which is Rome from where the Lord sets up His kingdom (Dan 2:44), is a kingdom of iron who breaks others in pieces (Dan 2:40), and as such its system is comparable to the fourth beast in Daniel 7:7 during the end times who has great iron teeth and devours and breaks in pieces.

    Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
    Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Nobody is playing games. You said earlier that the 4th beast in Dan 7 was Greece because the little horns were the same in Dan 7 and 8. Now you're saying that Rome is the fourth beast? Then how can the little horns be the same? How can the 4 horns in Dan 8 be part of the 10 in Dan 7?



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    This is what I mean when I say you cannot hear. Below is copy of the criteria from # 95 post.
    Did Alexander the great traverse the whole earth from the west without touching the ground (Dan 8:5)?

    Did Alexander the great secede into four horns after conquering Media and Persia (Dan 8:8)?

    Who was the little horn that emerged from Alexander who shall destroy wonderfully, and prosper, while destroying the mighty and holy people (Dan 8:24), which correlates with the little horn wearing out the saints in Daniel 7:25?

    According to Daniel 7:27, following the ousting of the little horn and beast, the kingdom is then awarded to the saints thus indicating the end of Satan's world order.
    What was the end that came to the little horn after he was broken without hand in Daniel 8:25?
    And you're telling me the historical proof I pointed out as proof that they did meet these "criteria" was all in vain? You're still trying to tell me that they don't meet your criteria, when the world know and teaches that they did?


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    We know from Daniel chapter two that the first kingdom is Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar, and we know the fifth kingdom (the fourth after Nebuchadnezzar's) is Rome
    according to Dan 2:44.
    The three kingdoms in between would then be those who were around between Nebuchadnezzar and Rome. The Greeks would have been one. It's anyone's guess who the other two would be.
    And Persia/Media couldn't be one too? What's the purpose of noting these 5 beast in Dan 2 for then if they're of no significance?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    The five specific kingdoms in Daniel 2 are past with the last of the five kingdoms representing Rome.
    The Lord almighty set up His kingdom through Jesus Christ during the time Rome was the predominant kingdom on earth.
    So which kingdom is this?

    "According to Daniel 7:27, following the ousting of the little horn and beast, the kingdom is then awarded to the saints thus indicating the end of Satan's world order.
    What was the end that came to the little horn after he was broken without hand in Daniel 8:25?




    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Either you are continuing to play games, or you really cannot understand.
    The Lords kingdom was installed through Jesus Christ during the fifth kingdom mentioned in Daniel 2. The kingdoms (beasts) in Daniel 7 are today and have the characteristics of the kingdoms from back then, as I have provided an example of Rome and the fourth beast.
    You're the one playing the games. There's no verse that says Dan 2 is past and Dan 7 is future. The game is you saying nobody knows who the other kingdoms in Dan 2 are except for Babylon being the first and Rome the fifth, when Rome is not even mentioned anywhere in scripture. It is only thru history that we know Rome is the 5th beast kingdom. So how did you come up with the kingdom of iron being Rome in Dan 2? That is the game you're playing. You don't know who the other kingdoms are in Dan 2, guessing Greece might be one, but you know for sure Rome is the fifth kingdom though Rome isn't mentioned by name anywhere in scripture. So how do you know it's Rome?




    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    And I answered you, but you still can't hear.
    The he goat with the notable horn (its military), who traverses the whole earth from the west without touching the ground to destroy what today are the lands of Iran, Iraq, and parts of Syria, utilizes its notable air force to completely destroy these nations.
    This is why you are a propagandist, because you are not that naive. You are purposely blaspheming God's Word. The scripture specifically says who the he-goat is, and there's nothing written that suggests the horn is a military power. You are not real. You are purposely posting fake interpretations.

    Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
    Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
    Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
    Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
    You are blaspheming the scriptures. If the 5 kingdoms/beasts in Dan 2 consist of Babylon, maybe Greece, and Rome that correlates to the 4th beast in Dan 7, then where is Persia/Media that is conquered in Dan 8 by the great horn? Where is Persia/Media in Dan 7 if the little horns are the same, and the 4 horns in Dan 8 are among the 10 in Dan 7? This is the game you're playing, because I do not play with scripture.



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    You're right; Daniel 7:8 and 20 does refer to the little horn as coming among the ten horns. However, in reference to the same little horn Daniel 7:24 describe him rising up after the ten horns. We then see that the little horn coming among the beast with ten horns is the same as his rising from the ten horns.
    And here's a little nougat for you: The little horn in Daniel 8:9 we also see described coming out from one of the he goats four horns.

    Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
    Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
    Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
    You are a lost cause. You take my words and twist them for your gain. Dan 8:9 says the little horn comes "out" of one of the four horns. The "nougat" is the little horn in Dan 7 comes "up" among the 10, uprooting three as he comes "up." Dan 8 does not come "up." He comes "out" of one of the four, as a baby comes out of it's mother's womb. There's a big difference. But I see you true nature now.


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    In the bible horns are usually used as a metaphor for a military force.
    That is a bold face untruth.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    I've explained this to you this before, and I am getting very tired of repeating myself.
    That is only the "hate" nougat coming out against the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    You are still bent on your dogma about the he goat representing Alexander the great and the four horns representing four of his generals. This does not meet the criteria in scriptures I previously posted.
    You are try to dodge the historical fact and silence me and the truth, but it won't work no matter how nasty you get. You can be as redundant as you like.


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Answer me this: Did Alexander go in with one general and come back with four generals?
    Don't waste my time with your mimicry.


    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    I've already explained this to you.
    The current G-7 members are the seven heads of the beast. It's member head with the notable horn (military) after seceding into four nations will then comprise ten horns, but still only have one seat among the seven heads.
    You are a propagandist, not real.



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Who cares about the Macabees and their claims. They do not meet the criteria about the he goat I've posted and so I do not acknowledge them. It is you who are ignoring scriptures because of your dogma.
    You definitely are a propagandist. Who cares! Not you.



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    You say Gods Word about the he-goat not toughing the ground to annihilate Media and Persia is symbolic, whereas I say Air force.
    I don't doubt you get Air force from he-goats. That's brilliant assimilating.



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    You still choose to spin Daniel 8:17 & 19 that claim these as end times events into something other than end time events, whereas I choose to believe the Lords Word that these are end time events.
    You choose to assimilate airplanes with he-goats. I choose to assimilated historical fact and the general train of thought on the subject, not my private interpretation. Plus I can prove the fact in a court of law. I'm not speculative.




    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Try the spirits, but do not accuse them of being propagandists.
    Then you obviously don't know what trying the spirits entails. Here's a "nougat": You're failing.
    Last edited by precepts; 02-19-2017 at 07:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    In Daniel 8:5, Daniel is provided a vision of a he-goat who has a notable horn (military) who traverses the whole earth without touching the ground to destroy the two horns (militaries) of a ram (Daniel 8:7).

    Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
    7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.


    The angel Gabriel then informs Daniel that the visions shown him are in regards to the future during the end times (Daniel 8:17 & 19).

    Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
    19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.


    After informing Daniel as to the time when the vision relates, Gabriel then informs Daniel on who the ram with two horns, and the rough goat with the great horn represent (Daniel 8:20-21).

    Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
    21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


    Taking into consideration that the events described relate to the end times and that the lands of Media and Persia no longer exist, but instead correspond mostly to what are today the nations of Iran, Iraq, and parts of Syria, it would then be these modern day nations that will be destroyed by the rough goat with its great horn/military.
    And while the ancient nation of Greece continues to exist today, it is relatively next door to the Iran, Iraq, and Syria, and thus would not traverse the whole earth from the west to destroy those nations.
    Additionally, the nation of Greece does not fit the profile of a rough entity possessing a great military, thereby indicating Greece is a metaphor for a modern day nation that did not exist in the days of Daniel.
    Taking these criteria into account; the rough goat with a great military who traverses the whole earth without touching the ground to defeat Iran, Iraq, and Syria would have to represent the United States Air force.

    While I have presented these data in other posts in the past; current escalating tensions between the present administration and Iran, now leads me to ask: Does anyone think our current President is the first king who will totally annihilate Iran as indicated in Daniel 8:7?
    This is a wonderful post! I appreciate you sharing this. I think the very reasons you cited why this vision cannot be about modern Greece and Medio-Persia (a fallen empire which no longer exists today) are proof that this vision's fulfillment was no later than the 1st century, in the time of Christ.

    The chapter continues with the angel explaining:
    "24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

    This is a prophecy of persecution of the early church and of Jesus Christ. All of these prophecies ultimately were about the coming of Israel's (and our) Redeemer.
    Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zathrus View Post
    This is a wonderful post! I appreciate you sharing this. I think the very reasons you cited why this vision cannot be about modern Greece and Medio-Persia (a fallen empire which no longer exists today) are proof that this vision's fulfillment was no later than the 1st century, in the time of Christ.

    The chapter continues with the angel explaining:
    "24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

    This is a prophecy of persecution of the early church and of Jesus Christ. All of these prophecies ultimately were about the coming of Israel's (and our) Redeemer.
    Both his and your stumbling block is taking the chapter out of context because of one phrase when the entire chapter's context is Alexander the great and the Greek empire, putting the cart before the horse, the reason being a reading comprehension problem. Are the kingdoms in Dan 2 and 7 end times/future kingdoms too? I think not!
    Last edited by precepts; 02-27-2017 at 08:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zathrus View Post
    This is a wonderful post! I appreciate you sharing this. I think the very reasons you cited why this vision cannot be about modern Greece and Medio-Persia (a fallen empire which no longer exists today) are proof that this vision's fulfillment was no later than the 1st century, in the time of Christ.

    The chapter continues with the angel explaining:
    "24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

    This is a prophecy of persecution of the early church and of Jesus Christ. All of these prophecies ultimately were about the coming of Israel's (and our) Redeemer.
    Zathrus, If you read through the posts on this thread you will see that much of the data in Daniel 7 & 8, correlate with the data in Daniel 11 & 12, and Revelation 12 & 13, all of which occur during the end times of the present world orders.
    The Lord did not make multiple references to these events occurring during the end times only for it to represent some two thousand + year old events.
    If it did mean some two thousand year old events; the Lord having referenced it occurring during the end times in four places in Daniel 8:17 & 19, and Daniel 12:4 & 9 would make Him at best an incompetent author of confusion, which He is not.

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