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Thread: The he-goat and ram in Daniel 8

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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    Following you train of though, the the great horn and the 4 that comes up after it's broken in Dan 8 must be the same horns mention in Dan 7. Dan 8 is "elaborating" on the horns in Dan 7, right?
    That is correct; the little horn who rises from the beast with ten horns is the same little horn who rises from one of four seceded horns from the he goats prominent horn.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    It wasn't saying that that is what you were saying per say, but what you are implying in claiming they're the same - a mountain out of mole hill.

    Why you can't comprehend the fact that Greece in chapter 8 is the 3rd beast in Dan 7, and not the 4th, is beyond reasoning.
    The he goat in ch 8 from who the little horn will rise is a member of the fourth beast with ten horns in chapter 7 from whom the little horn will rise.
    From what nation the little horn comes from, who knows; but what I do know is that we have to wait until the he goat goes and conquers the nations that today correspond with Media and Persia, and then afterwards secedes into four powers, before the little horn utilizes one of those four powers to rise from, and then according to Daniel 7:8 & 24, he will uproot three of the beasts ten horns.

    Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


    Also notice, the little horns mouth who speaks great things in (Daniel 7:8 & 25), is the same mouth who speaks great things in favor of the beasts system in Revelation 13:5.

    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    That is correct; the little horn who rises from the beast with ten horns is the same little horn who rises from one of four seceded horns from the he goats prominent horn.
    That means the great horn and the four horns in Dan 8 are the same horns in Dan 7 too, right?



    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    The he goat in ch 8 from who the little horn will rise is a member of the fourth beast with ten horns in chapter 7 from whom the little horn will rise.
    From what nation the little horn comes from, who knows; but what I do know is that we have to wait until the he goat goes and conquers the nations that today correspond with Media and Persia, and then afterwards secedes into four powers, before the little horn utilizes one of those four powers to rise from, and then according to Daniel 7:8 & 24, he will uproot three of the beasts ten horns.
    And I suppose you don't know which nations the 4 beasts in Dan 7 are either, huh?

    And what about the historical fact that the first king of Greece, Alexander the great, conquered Persia/Media in 320 B.C.?

    What about the historical fact that after he died his kingdom was divided into four kingdoms by his four generals who made themselves kings of these kingdoms? What about that? What about the fact that the wars chronicled in Dan 11 between the king of the North and South were actually historic wars between two of these four generals/nations? What about that?

    The Seleucids ruled in the north country in the Babylonia region, and the Ptolemies were in the South, ruling Egypt. What about these historical facts fitting the prophecy to a tee?

    And what about the historical fact that during the reign of these kings that the sanctuary was defiled and had to be cleansed? Are these all just coincidences?

    I don't see how you don't consider all these things, don't know who the 4 beasts in Dan 7 are, but know who the little horn is for sure. Isn't there suppose to be a pattern/succession of kingdoms that the beasts in Daniel's vision are suppose to be representing?

    What's the significance of noting the 4 beast in Dan 7 if you're only concerned with the little horn to come and attack the old Persia/Media region? Why only Persia/Media matters to be conquered by you don't know what nation to be divided into four to fulfill Dan 8? Doesn't that sound absurd? It's like the entire book is of no significance until Dan 8.
    Last edited by precepts; 02-16-2017 at 06:37 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dear pre,
    As soon as Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon, against directions from the Senate, Rome became a dictatorship. His rule as dictator lasted 42 months (Rev 13:5). The Senate thought they got the last laugh when they "slayed" him, and then, they simply turned around and made him a god by decree. He was revived as Augustus Caesar"(Rev 13:3-5), and the following Caesars were considered gods, and had all his powers. Julius Caesar was cremated, such as "the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire" (Daniel 7:11). The term Caesar and emperor are interchangeable. Hitler did the same in Germany, and became a dictator, in the manner of heil Caesar/Hitler. BO became a dictator as soon as he ignored congress and ruled by pen and cell phone.
    You are basically guessing. There is no scriptural base for you conclusions. And when I say scriptural base I'm referring to basis like: the "two horns of the ram" represented Cyrus and Darius. one horn coming up before the other and was taller, etc. The great horn on the he-goat was the first king of Greece, from which came up four horns when it was broken, etc. Notice the pattern? The little horn coming out of one of the four horns, etc? That is what defines the 10 horns on the 4th beast in Dan 7. They were men, the first 10 Roman Kings/emperors, and Julius Caesar was never an emperor. Ask Wikipedia or any other historical document. It is during the reign of these men that God sets up His heavenly kingdom and cleanses it. That is the timeline. The 3 1/2yrs, the 42mths, the 1,260 days all represent the other half of the week that the covenant was confirmed for, years. One thousand two hundred and sity yrs to the end of the week because Israel existed as a nation for 1.260 yrs until the Abomination of Desolation. The facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dan 7:
    Your Nerva influenced no one, and there was no 1000 years of kingdom set up in 98 AD.
    You are speaking about things you don't know about. Nerva was the last emperor to be related to Rome by blood or birth. He uprooted the Flavian Dynasty when he became emperor. Check the history. The Beast, Flavius, ended the Julio Caesar, I think was the name of the Dynasty though Caesar was never an emperor, and started his own dynasty with his two sons. Nerva uprooted the Flavian dynasty when he became emperor. He also changed the custom of emperors being called Caesar, making the emperors to be to be called Caesar instead, bringing in the change necessary for the 5th beast kingdom in Dan 2. He also instituted the worship of the Beast, Flavius. Know your history.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    The "false prophet" is dead, and his "unclean spirit" is what is being used to gather "the kings of the whole world" for the "war of the great day of God" (Rev 16:13-16).
    You're starting to act like ludwig now. You know better than to add and take away from what's written.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    That war has not yet commenced, but is at hand.
    Nonsense, because all that's written proves the fact that these events happen in heaven. You just saying so doesn't make it so. You can't prove it didn't happen, and opinions aren't worth a dime in a debate forum. Get wise.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    The 11th horn of Rome was the brother of Titus, Domitian.
    I told you the scripted 11th, yet you come back with this foolishness. History records an additional emperor during the Roman era of "the Year of Four Emperors," which is what Revelation was talking about when it said five are fallen, etc. The Beast was the 8th, Flavius, his two sons the 8th and 10th Roman emperors/horns/kings.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Daniel 7:24 is not referring to the 11th emperor/king of Rome, it says, "and another will arise after them" (Daniel 7:24), and he will "intend to make alterations in times and in law" (Daniel 7:24-25).
    And that's not the 11th horn/king/emperor that arises after the first ten?


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    That describes Constantine, who subdued 3 kings to unify Rome, and instituted the Roman church, and intend change time and laws. It is his mark which the "Christians" carry on their hand and forehead.
    Please! If you can't prove it in a court of law, keep it to yourself. You're wasting my time. All the horns in Daniel's prophecies are/were men. I already showed you the pattern.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    As for you thinking "brown" is a badge of courage, they follow the spotted and the speckled.
    Brown is a badge of honor! Spotted and speckled is a mark of blemish.



    I saw you coming from a mile away!


    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
    Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
    Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.


    The horns are kings. The beasts are kings! Care to name the four kings of the four beast kingdoms?

    I'll give you a hint: They're the first king of each beast kingdom - Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Alexander the great, and ....
    Last edited by precepts; 02-16-2017 at 07:35 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that [is] not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

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    pre wrote:
    The horns are kings. The beasts are kings! Care to name the four kings of the four beast kingdoms?

    I'll give you a hint: They're the first king of each beast kingdom - Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Alexander the great, and ....
    Dear pre,
    The fourth beast was Rome, and the first emperor of Rome, who usurped the Republic, was Julius Caesar. The first horn of the beast was Augustus Caesar, known as Octavian. It was Caesar and his legions who the false prophet Paul called on to be saved. It was under the power of Caesar that John the Baptist was beheaded. It was under the authority of Caesar that Jerusalem was destroyed by Pompey, and Titus. And it was under the Augustus Caesar, Constantine, that "those who dwell on the earth" were deceived, under the title of the "beast with two horns like a lamb. It was under the legacy of Caesar, that one paid to Caesar what is Caesars. No one has heard of your Nerva, and no one cares.

    Your Marcus Cocceius Nerva Caesar Augustus, was nothing but a "healed" Caesar, as can be shown by his name. He served 2 years and not 42 months, and he was a bit of a nothing. And as with Julius, he was deified by the Senate. I am thinking you have spent too much time under the sun, or read one to many tracts.

    Excerpt from Wikipedia, pointing out that Caesar was a "dictator"/emperor.

    Julius Caesar
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    This article is about the Roman dictator. For his relatives named Julius Caesar, see Julii Caesares. For other uses, see Julius Caesar (disambiguation).
    Last edited by 2ndpillar; 02-16-2017 at 09:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    That means the great horn and the four horns in Dan 8 are the same horns in Dan 7 too, right?
    That is what I have been saying. The notable horn in Dan 8 that secedes into four horns comprise four of the beasts 10 horns.



    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    And I suppose you don't know which nations the 4 beasts in Dan 7 are either, huh?
    The four beasts in Dan 7 are all the worlds nations that make up four different type socioeconomic systems. In Dan 7 they are separate, but in Revelation 13 they are joined together after the fourth beast rises from the sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    And what about the historical fact that the first king of Greece, Alexander the great, conquered Persia/Media in 320 B.C.?
    Did Alexander the great traverse the whole earth from the west without touching the ground (Dan 8:5)?

    Did Alexander the great secede into four horns after conquering Media and Persia (Dan 8:8)?

    Who was the little horn that emerged from Alexander who shall destroy wonderfully, and prosper, while destroying the mighty and holy people (Dan 8:24), which correlates with the little horn wearing out the saints in Daniel 7:25?

    According to Daniel 7:27, following the ousting of the little horn and beast, the kingdom is then awarded to the saints thus indicating the end of Satan's world order.
    What was the end that came to the little horn after he was broken without hand in Daniel 8:25?


    Quote Originally Posted by precepts View Post
    What about the historical fact that after he died his kingdom was divided into four kingdoms by his four generals who made themselves kings of these kingdoms? What about that? What about the fact that the wars chronicled in Dan 11 between the king of the North and South were actually historic wars between two of these four generals/nations? What about that?

    The Seleucids ruled in the north country in the Babylonia region, and the Ptolemies were in the South, ruling Egypt. What about these historical facts fitting the prophecy to a tee?

    And what about the historical fact that during the reign of these kings that the sanctuary was defiled and had to be cleansed? Are these all just coincidences?

    I don't see how you don't consider all these things, don't know who the 4 beasts in Dan 7 are, but know who the little horn is for sure. Isn't there suppose to be a pattern/succession of kingdoms that the beasts in Daniel's vision are suppose to be representing?

    What's the significance of noting the 4 beast in Dan 7 if you're only concerned with the little horn to come and attack the old Persia/Media region? Why only Persia/Media matters to be conquered by you don't know what nation to be divided into four to fulfill Dan 8? Doesn't that sound absurd? It's like the entire book is of no significance until Dan 8.
    There are many historical events that can be made to fit somewhat with the criteria of events in Daniel 7 through 12 and Revelation 13, but they do not fit all the criteria.
    This is why the Lord has provided us all this correlating information along with repeating numerous times that these events regard the end times.

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    lud wrote: That is what I have been saying. The notable horn in Dan 8 that secedes into four horns comprise four of the beasts 10 horns.
    Dear lud,
    The four horns of Daniel 8:8, where the generals of Alexander the Great, who inherited his kingdom. "The rather small horn", who "out of one of them", "toward the beautiful land", was Antiochus IV Epiphanes (manifest god), the son of Antiochus the III, who persecuted Jews (trampled them down) Daniel 8:10). None of these were Roman horns (Daniel 7:7), they were all Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dear lud,
    The four horns of Daniel 8:8, where the generals of Alexander the Great, who inherited his kingdom. "The rather small horn", who "out of one of them", "toward the beautiful land", was Antiochus IV Epiphanes (manifest god), the son of Antiochus the III, who persecuted Jews (trampled them down) Daniel 8:10). None of these were Roman horns (Daniel 7:7), they were all Greek.
    I see what you mean; maybe Mr. Ed and Howdy Doody had roles in the end as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    I see what you mean; maybe Mr. Ed and Howdy Doody had roles in the end as well.
    Dear lud,
    The difference is that Mr. Ed didn't set up a statue of Zeus in the Temple at Jerusalem, and sacrifice swine to the statue.

    Rabbinical literature[edit]

    The rabbinical consensus is that the expression refers to the 168 BCE desecration of the Second Temple (Herod's Temple) by the erection of a Zeus statue in its sacred precincts by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the flashpoint of the Maccabean Revolt).[6][7] Some rabbis, however, see in it an allusion to Manasseh, who is reported to have set up "a carved image ... in the house of God".[8][9]

    Church Fathers[edit]

    Church Father John Chrysostom understood this to refer to the armies that surrounded Jerusalem and the factions fighting within it which preceded the destruction of the city.[10]

    Modern biblical scholarship[edit]

    See also: Book of Daniel Dating and content, and Gospel of Mark Date

    The 1 Maccabees usage of the term points to the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the mid-2nd century BC. Specifically, he set up an altar, probably to Zeus or Baal Shamem, in the Second Temple in Jerusalem and sacrificed swine on it around the year 168 BC.[11] Many modern scholars believe that Daniel 9:27, 11:31 and 12:11 are examples of vaticinium ex eventu (prophecies after the event) relating to Antiochus.[12][13]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dear lud,
    The difference is that Mr. Ed didn't set up a statue of Zeus in the Temple at Jerusalem, and sacrifice swine to the statue.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation
    Man is the Lords temple (1 Corinthians 6:19).

    1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    When the abomination of desolation stands where he ought not (Mark 13:14); he is not standing in a stone temple; he is standing in the hearts of men, when he enacts a new global economic system that the whole faithless world will worship (Revelation 13:8).

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
    Man is the Lords temple (1 Corinthians 6:19).

    1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    When the abomination of desolation stands where he ought not (Mark 13:14); he is not standing in a stone temple; he is standing in the hearts of men, when he enacts a new global economic system that the whole faithless world will worship (Revelation 13:8).

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    Dear jud,
    You will find that your gold coin had the image of the beast, which was the image of Caesar, or in the case of Constantine's gold coin of 312 AD, it also had the image of the "dragon", which was Sol Invictus, the god you worship every day of the sun (Sunday). You worship not only the beast and therefore the dragon who gave his authority to the beast (Rev 13:4), but the "dragon" directly.

    Keep in mind, that Antiochus came at the "half a time", mid Greek empire, and at the "end of time", would be when Pompey destroyed Jerusalem. Pompey also set up an "abomination of desolation", and the Jews fled. Titus came at the "end of time" for the 6th head of the beast, he also set up an abomination of desolation, and worshipped it with a swine sacrifice, and some of the Jews fled. As for the author of your 1 Cor 6:19, he had nothing good dwelling in him (Romans 7:18). Apparently he had the "messenger of Satan" dwelling in his being. (2 Cor 12:7)

    New American Standard Bible 2 Cor 12:7
    " there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself!"

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