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Thread: Some ideas on Baptism

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehushuan View Post
    I already gave my mea culpas Richard.
    Dear yeh,
    And here I thought "mea culpas" were reserved for Roman Catholics. You live and you learn.
    Last edited by 2ndpillar; 02-17-2017 at 02:33 AM.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste View Post

    Does no anyone here recognize that Mikvah continues into baptism? That it is essentially the same thing. I understand that there is almost no Christian preachers who teach this, they tend to ignore anything Jewish. But Jesus was a Jew who followed the law precisely.
    To be fair I did try and address what you wanted but may be I did not say what you wanted to hear.

    In my experience the Mikvah is not taught outside specific teaching on Judaism. If the connection is never made it will never be addressed. Having considered it now I may well use it... hardly what you want though.

    As far as the Holy Spirit is concerned we see evidence of its presence throughout the Old Testament but it is not identified or named until Jesus does so.

    Richard Gillett
    I am an unworthy servant. But someone had to stand up and be counted.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Gillett View Post
    To be fair I did try and address what you wanted but may be I did not say what you wanted to hear.

    In my experience the Mikvah is not taught outside specific teaching on Judaism. If the connection is never made it will never be addressed. Having considered it now I may well use it... hardly what you want though.

    As far as the Holy Spirit is concerned we see evidence of its presence throughout the Old Testament but it is not identified or named until Jesus does so.

    Richard Gillett
    Dear rg,
    Yeshua had the Spirit of God, and Elijah had the Spirit of God. They were both anointed. Elijah gave a double portion of his spirit to Elisha. (2 Kings 2:9) All kings, prophets, and judges, were anointed of the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God, was not a new concept. The Spirit of God was seeking a tabernacle in the congregation of Israel, and until Israel was refined (Zech 13:9), had to settle for the Holy of Holies.

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    Thank you Richard, I do agree that God's spirit is presented throughout the OT but then again the history of rabbinical writings mainly left it out, because there was no black letter law describing it.

    My whole purpose here was to allow greater consideration. I'm not interested in creating some bizarre new doctrine or dogma here.

    Is there any significance to the fact that Jesus was a practicing Jew? I am not suggesting here that Jesus was bound by that definition but he performed all the correct Jewish rituals, said not one jot or tittle of the law would disappear. I surmise that Jesus was not about to disavow that heritage he had. In light of that can we Christians totally dismiss Judaism as being somehow false or irrelevant?

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    If water baptism is a requirement to receive the Holy Spirit then how was Noah a righteous man in God's eyes, what about Abraham and so forth we know that these men were a child of God and according to Rom. 8:9 we have to have the spirit of God in order to become saved and yet these men knew nothing of water baptism.

    Now just because you see the phrase born of water does not automatically makes it mean water baptism because if you look all throughout the Bible the water can have many definitions and one namely that of being the word of God. [Jn. 4:11].
    C....,

    A worthy point to discuss.

    The Bible answers the questions;

    Water baptism under the OT was for body cleansing...Christ had not arrived ...yet.

    Water baptism under the NT is adopted to complete the sin cleansing process after repentance, a symbolic act to acknowledge Christ as our Savior and make full atonement of all past sins.

    Acts 2:38..Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Spirit)..

    John 3:5...
    “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    C, ...there are many references in the NT referring to the requirements of baptism. But, those two alone...requires water baptism.

    A personal thought here; I stick to a practice with scriptures thusly..."If in doubt (there should be none here) don't throw it out".

    We only have one chance to get it right for eternity and I will not take a chance on being wrong.
    Last edited by Preston; 02-17-2017 at 09:18 AM.
    Blessings to you!


    Preston

    Without Christ you are alone.....you can't handle it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dear yeh,
    And here I thought "mea culpas" were reserved for Roman Catholics. You live and you learn.
    Glad I could help you along. Now is there any way we could get the letter "u" fixed on your computer?
    Watch Out !! Christians are so into human sacrifice they slay their own wounded.

    Current ignore list: JimD, De Maria, Agape, jmldn2, smoky

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste View Post
    Thank you Richard, I do agree that God's spirit is presented throughout the OT but then again the history of rabbinical writings mainly left it out, because there was no black letter law describing it.

    My whole purpose here was to allow greater consideration. I'm not interested in creating some bizarre new doctrine or dogma here.

    Is there any significance to the fact that Jesus was a practicing Jew? I am not suggesting here that Jesus was bound by that definition but he performed all the correct Jewish rituals, said not one jot or tittle of the law would disappear. I surmise that Jesus was not about to disavow that heritage he had. In light of that can we Christians totally dismiss Judaism as being somehow false or irrelevant?
    The impression I have always had is the Jesus came as a Jew, for the Jews, as is backed up by his comment to the Gentile woman in need. The Christian message has always been one of inheritance due to the persistent disobedience of Israel. In fact, it could easily be construed that God was a tribal God of the Jews right up until Peter's vision at Joppah!

    The dismissal of the Jews is partly self destruction and partly over zealousness (IMO) of certain Christian dogmas.

    The thing is that, although Christianity clearly started as a branch of Judaism, the split was made by Judaism not specifically Christians.(by tradition at least.) There is no doubt that the roots of Christianity are in Judaism and much of our beliefs and rituals are based on or stem from those roots, but, just as our understandng of God has developed, so has the distinctiveness of Christianity and its practices. The Atonement starts from animal sacrifice but supercedes as a one off and, in many ways, water baptism my well stem from the Mikvah but is also now considered a one off. John was clearly breaking new ground with his baptism of repentance. It was not the Mikvah as such, or at least the bible does not refer to it in those terms. Yes the Mikvah is a cleasing ritual, but the scope was limited, whereas John was claiming a more universal, life changing cleansing.

    Jesus came for the Jews and, apparently the Jews alone. It is one of the mysteries of of God that He appears to have a favoured people. It is also a strike against His actual existence in many people's eyes. The God of the Old Testament is not the God we describe in the New Testament and beyond. Now we can wriggle about and claim that God is personal to each group He approaches - ie, the same God for Hinduism, Islam, Judaism and so on... then we have to wriggle further to decide at what point it is not the true God that is being worshipped - ie that some are false religions. Or we get dogmatic and claim that God made Himself known to the Jews and encompassed everyone else once the Jews rejected Christ... but that then causes problems over why Christ was restricted in the first place? In theory, if the Jews had recognised and accepted Christ, we would never have got a look in! Where is the God of the whole world now? (then)

    As you can see, it is by no means as simple as your almost inocent supplemetary question about Christ being a Jew.

    In all truth we are still "guessing" is the wrong word, but there is an underlying uncertainty which our faith transcends. I know God is my God, but that is because of the relationship I have now, not the history that lead up to this point.

    Perhaps there are somethings we should not delve too far into?

    And clearly the notion of a Universal God does not sit well with Biblical fundamentalists and zealous Christians.
    (I will probably get harangued for some if not all of this post)

    Richard
    I am an unworthy servant. But someone had to stand up and be counted.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndpillar View Post
    Dear rg,
    Yeshua had the Spirit of God, and Elijah had the Spirit of God. They were both anointed. Elijah gave a double portion of his spirit to Elisha. (2 Kings 2:9) All kings, prophets, and judges, were anointed of the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God, was not a new concept. The Spirit of God was seeking a tabernacle in the congregation of Israel, and until Israel was refined (Zech 13:9), had to settle for the Holy of Holies.
    PLease read me more carefully.

    I said "the Holy Spirt", not "the spirit of god", one being a specific name and the other not being so.

    Besides 2 Kings talks about the spirt of Elijah, not the spirit of God.

    When David is annointed it s termed the Spirit of the Lord and yet David himself never performs any miracles as such or is even considered either a prophet or even a priest. IOW it is more a case of God being with him than inside of him. The concept is not the same.

    The powers of Moses are attributed to God, not Moses par se. And the magicians of Egypt seem able to emulate at least one of them, if with lesser power.(Moses' serpent eats the Egyptian ones).

    Then, later on, as you say, the spirit of God seems confined to the "Holy of Holies" or even The ark of the Covenant. IOW it is a completely different view of what consitutes the Spirit of God. (admittedly it is not particuarly Trinitarian at face value, but that IMO does not disprove the Trinity, in fact it could be seen as independant of God above while resting in situ)

    I am trying to be fair, not dogmatic. I hope you appreciate this

    Richard Gillett
    I am an unworthy servant. But someone had to stand up and be counted.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste View Post
    Thank you Richard, I do agree that God's spirit is presented throughout the OT but then again the history of rabbinical writings mainly left it out, because there was no black letter law describing it.

    My whole purpose here was to allow greater consideration. I'm not interested in creating some bizarre new doctrine or dogma here.

    Is there any significance to the fact that Jesus was a practicing Jew? I am not suggesting here that Jesus was bound by that definition but he performed all the correct Jewish rituals, said not one jot or tittle of the law would disappear. I surmise that Jesus was not about to disavow that heritage he had. In light of that can we Christians totally dismiss Judaism as being somehow false or irrelevant?
    Is there any significance to the fact that Jesus was a practicing Jew?
    Things to consider Celeste;

    Jesus HAD to take upon Himself the seed of Abraham, thus making Himself several things.

    1) Lawfully related to Abraham ~ according to mans law, and the law of nature, and prophecy.
    2) Jesus lawfully related to Abraham, by default made Jesus lawfully related to Abraham's descendants, ie King David.
    3) Jesus lawfully had to be related to Kind David, to be "qualified" lawfully to sit on David's Throne.
    4) Jesus' lawful relation to Abraham, made Jesus a "Son", to the lawful descendants of Abraham, who were "like Abraham", faithful servants (ie favored of God), thus making Jesus, a lawful Son of man.
    5) Jesus being a lawful descendant of Abraham, thus entitles to the Land promised to Abraham, and certain of his descendants, also entitled to Jesus.

    Jesus' fulfilled not only laws of Scripture, and prophecy of Scripture; He also fulfilled laws of man and laws according to nature.

    Jesus has prepared, by fulfillment; His entitlement to sit on King David's Throne as King, but also entitlement to LAND reserved FOR Christ's Kingdom on Earth, which IS Land Promised to Abraham and particulars of his heirs.

    And the same for EVERYONE WHO takes on the Seed of God (which is Christ and His Spirit indwelling), they also are a Promised descendant of Abraham, BY PROMISE of God, by taking upon themselves the seed of Abraham, are a child of Abraham, and thus are entitled to the Land promised Abraham, which will encompass Christ's earthly Kingdom.

    Heb 2 [17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren,

    Yes IT was necessary (behoved) for Jesus to be manifest as a Jew.

    Jesus a Practicing Jew?

    Scripture reveals Jesus IS the TRUTH.
    Scripture reveals Jesus can not stand against Himself.

    Scripture reveals something very interesting;
    1 ) That the OT testifies of Jesus.

    And almost obscure but very revealing...

    John 10: [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    Jesus quoting:

    Pss.82

    [6] I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    Laws of the Jews is IN the OT.

    Thus we see in the OT.....spoken, ye are gods.

    John 10: [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    Jesus just revealed He was quoting HIMSELF.

    Of course Jesus obeyed the Jewish law ~ He can not stand against Himself ~ He is the author.

    Heb.12

    [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;

    Heb.2

    [16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    Praise and Glory to Lord God Almighty, for His Great Name's Sake.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Gillett View Post

    I said "the Holy Spirit", not "the spirit of god", one being a specific name and the other not being so.
    The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God IS ONE SPIRIT.

    As the unseen God does certain things, the seen, God with us does certain things and the Spirit of God does certain things. It is ALL ONE SPIRIT LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, revealing to us the WHOLE of God and BY what OF Him is accomplishing WHAT He reveals.
    Praise and Glory to Lord God Almighty, for His Great Name's Sake.

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