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Thread: Some ideas on Baptism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Gillett View Post
    I was talking about water baptism. Which is the subject of the OP.
    The OP is just as vague, and the title of the Thread does not overtly say water baptism.

    Get over yourself.

    (Hmm... that's an American idiom that might not translate well across the pond.)
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke

    (One of wisest men I've known. RIP: March 5th 2017)

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    OK Yehu but the first post specifically included only water baptism.

    Does no anyone here recognize that Mikvah continues into baptism? That it is essentially the same thing. I understand that there is almost no Christian preachers who teach this, they tend to ignore anything Jewish. But Jesus was a Jew who followed the law precisely.

    Did any of the Jews recognize the Holy Spirit? I would suggest there were a few rabbis who spoke out about the Holy Spirit, and the spirit of the law. They might not have been within the mainstream Pharisaical lines of authority. So it was possible that some Jews besides the apostles might have had a chance to learn about the Holy Spirit. But then neither was Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Gillett View Post
    no, you impose your views onto it
    Impose/force/demand it be accepted? Uh no Richard. This is open forum that ANYONE can state their views. No one is forced to read or accept what one says.

    Except that it does not say what you claim it does. You take a single sentance out of context and impose your own values onto it or treat it with no respect to what is around it. ie quoting without context. And you marry proverbial chalk and cheese
    That pretty much sounds like YOUR VIEW. However, you are VOID of any example, so YOUR VIEW is without teeth.

    That is vanity talk
    It is not vain to reveal not everyone has understanding. It is taught in scripture.

    only because you fail to ralise what I am reerirring to or see what I claim
    Seems you wanted to speak about Water Baptism. I personally do not see the benefit of Water Baptism.

    I know your posts. and yes you do claim the choice,
    Uh huh.

    a hobson choice, or the choice of a man with a gun at his head. IOW no choice at all.
    Well perhaps you would like to apply your assessment to what Jesus says; (which I agree with Jesus) which is:

    Matt.12 [30] He that is not with me is against me;

    So, I think that pretty efficient. A man can CHOOSE Christ. And if a man thinks he can play a fools game by sitting on the fence post, that notion is quashed. Jesus came to divide. And the division is either WITH or WITHOUT Him. Simple.

    I have in the past.
    The past is over with.

    No, I am asking you to stick to the Op and not go off on a tangent. This thread is about water baptism, not the Holy Spirit.
    I hardly find speaking of baptism of the Holy Spirit off on a tangent under a title of a tread called:
    Some ideas on Baptism

    You have not answered my post
    Perhaps I found no question to make a remark.

    You want an example of bad quoting? you just did it.
    LOL ~ far out Richard. I asked for no such thing.

    except that is not the OP
    Whatevs

    Woah.
    I am not dismissing the Holy Spirit. it is just not what Celeste was discussing. Read the OP!
    I responded to the thread title.

    I have made not judgement as such. There is no judicial sentance nor consequence in my words.
    Whatevs

    That is a.
    ?

    That is probably true
    It is.

    I am sorry but thatis not the tone of your posting
    I'm blunt. I expound. I communicate a lot with the deaf, so that is my teaching style. It benefits them. If you are hearing, you have an advantage, and can challenge whether what I speak is true or not. Other than that, I have nothing to prove.

    The vanity is that you might think you have something I have not
    I speak for myself and can only wonder about others who dance in circles. If you have something to claim for yourself, claim it. It's not vanity, it's your truth is all.

    Again that is not what comes across. Perhaps you should read you own words from the angle of the receiver?
    If you are sensitive and require sugar coating in all responses to you, reveal it.

    The point is the tone of your posting and the assertiveness of it.
    I am studied, and not lax. I absolutely know what I ask God for and trust Him explicitly. I serve Him, not the feelings of others.

    Even if you claim a choice you make it damn certain which you think someone should chose.
    I CHOSE CHRIST'S way, and absolutely testify for His WAY. I will testify of Him, His WAY, and you and anyone else can choose whatever y'all want.

    I suggest you read what you said. You claimed that I cannot have the Holy Spirit if I do not concur with you!
    If that is true, why is it YOUR words that appear, and not a quote of my words?

    I have changed the thrust, and my only apology is that it is directed, personally at you.
    Okay, accepted, however I did not find anything for you to apologize for.

    Now read again what I said. Read it. Understand it. Reject it if you must, but understand this:
    I am trying to point out an error in your ways,
    I prefer to deal in facts. If you find cause to state what I say is not true....quote it, challenge it.

    not condemning you or claiming you not to be a Christian or not to have the Holy Spirit.
    Just remember that the Holy Spirit does not guide your hand,
    Never said or implied He does. And have expressly stated the Holy Spirit guides a mans spirit in his heart.

    or ensure that you are understanding fully what He is saying.
    I am fully aware of what I ask God for, what comes from my heart and what comes solely from my mind.

    Ultimately it is Rachael who writes, not the Holy Spirt.
    Not wholly true. Christ does some writing in my heart and does put words in my mouth.

    And you never know Rachael might occasionally be wrong, or at least be writing her own opinions.
    And often I have said on this forum; vague accusations mean nothing to me. Challenge me on the truth of what I say.

    Blessings and no hard feelings
    Ditto back to you as well Richard.
    Praise and Glory to Lord God Almighty, for His Great Name's Sake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste View Post
    OK Yehu but the first post specifically included only water baptism.
    My apologies. Apparently it didn't seem clear to Rachel either, but mea culpas to Richard. And I'll schedule that eye test asap.

    Hope the answer on word origins helped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste View Post
    Does no anyone here recognize that Mikvah continues into baptism?
    Curious enough, though, the word baptism is not in the LXX (the Greek version of the OT) so apparently the translators back then didn't think the Mikvah was related to baptism.

    However... may I ask the Strong's number for "Mikvah" or any OT verses that describe this?

    Kindly,
    Yehu
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke

    (One of wisest men I've known. RIP: March 5th 2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Gillett View Post
    Question is meaningless out of the context of the statement made.

    I was just confirming the topic of the OP

    Richard Gillett
    How is it meaningless ?? If the mikvah has to deal with cleansing and if water baptism has to deal with cleansing, then if you are implying that water baptism is the means of salvation then how does it apply to those who lived in the O.T.
    May the LORD have mercy upon us all and richly bless us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    No.
    The body and souls sin is cleansed with Christ Jesus' BLOOD and forgiven BY Jesus' shed BLOOD.
    The body is become dead, is sanctified, kept with Christ, justified to become changed together with all believers, later.
    The soul is restored, ie saved, made holy, keeps life forever.

    Receiving the baptism OF the Holy Spirit; is introducing the Seed of God;
    ^ THAT births a mans new spirit, holy, keeps life forever.

    Eph 4: [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism...

    A man WHO submits unto the Lord in faithfulness, becomes "THEN", BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit. <--- LIFE GIVING

    ^ THAT is an INTERNAL Spiritual Change within the man.
    ^ THAT is the ONE Baptism required of Gods Spirit.

    A man WHO thereafter desires to OUTWARDLY show his "internal" baptism before witnesses, "schedules" a baptism in "water" before the congregation....which is also typically a "JOINING" of that particular church.

    IOW ~ A mans ONE Baptism, (by the HS), is a man receiving eternal life in his internal spirit, by the Seed for God.

    The cleansing is by being washed in the BLOOD.
    The forgiveness is possible by Jesus' BLOOD being shed/spilled/given.
    The HS Baptism is giving a mans internal spirit, eternal LIFE, via the Seed of God.

    Water Baptism is for witnesses to outwardly observe (witness) an internal change; and often required to "become a member of a particular" church.
    R...,

    "No"?

    That is above your pay grade...I submit.

    None of your listings support your conclusion.. nor negates The Bible telling us we...must...be water baptized, it is required;

    ACTS 2;38... Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    That's enough to dispose of your "No".

    Matt. 28:19...Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    One cannot receive the HS without water baptism...it is required; John 3:5 ... Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    There are others.

    Now without...a litany of scriptural citations .....please show... one ....scripture that say's your "No" is conclusive...?

    You and I have had this discourse before and you have never posted a proper response to support you position. Here is another chance.

    Last edited by Preston; 02-16-2017 at 08:14 PM.
    Blessings to you!


    Preston

    Without Christ you are alone.....you can't handle it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston View Post

    One cannot receive the HS without water baptism...it is required; John 3:5 ... Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [I]of[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    If water baptism is a requirement to receive the Holy Spirit then how was Noah a righteous man in God's eyes, what about Abraham and so forth we know that these men were a child of God and according to Rom. 8:9 we have to have the spirit of God in order to become saved and yet these men knew nothing of water baptism.

    Now just because you see the phrase born of water does not automatically makes it mean water baptism because if you look all throughout the Bible the water can have many definitions and one namely that of being the word of God. [Jn. 4:11].
    May the LORD have mercy upon us all and richly bless us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehushuan View Post
    The OP is just as vague, and the title of the Thread does not overtly say water baptism.
    Now read what she said

    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste View Post
    I have no intention of trying to thoroughly explain the totality of Baptism here, mainly there are a few points that upon further research strike me as significant.

    1. a)Baptism must be voluntary and therefore having someone putting their hands on our head and pushing us into the water imply a force used, (not voluntary?)
    b) anywhere some one else's hands touch the one being Baptized, means that the water did not completely cover them
    c) officials in the early centuries were there as witnesses not performers. Again completely voluntary and performed by the individual who chose to be Baptized.

    2. Baptism was to be performed in "living water" therefore pools (plastic or cement), and other self contained tubs cannot be used for proper Baptism. The water needs to enter and leave the pool through gravity.

    3.The individuals being Baptized did it essentially on their own (with witnesses) no magic words, no officials given authority and no clothes. But after proper repentance expressed by the individual.

    4. The entire process is and was symbolic of dying and coming to life in a renewed Christian life. Baptism "in the Holy spirit" again is a completely separate and different process that empowers one for special service for the church.

    5. Baptism was not meant to be a one time event never to be repeated, but something than can be used whenever an individual feels there is a need. (although not excessively.)

    Comments?
    And show where the Holy Spirit is even mentioned?

    Get over yourself.

    (Hmm... that's an American idiom that might not translate well across the pond.)
    Not so American but perhaps you need to look in a mirroir when you say it.

    And if you actually read my eralier posts you would seee that I have tried to keep the two processes of Baptising Water or Holy Spirit separated to avoid what you hae just claimed.

    The Mikvah is about water. So how can Baptism of the Holy Spirit have anything to do with it?

    Richard Gillett
    I am an unworthy servant. But someone had to stand up and be counted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chap View Post
    How is it meaningless ?? If the mikvah has to deal with cleansing and if water baptism has to deal with cleansing, then if you are implying that water baptism is the means of salvation then how does it apply to those who lived in the O.T.
    Because there is no record in the bible of any of the main charachters participating in the Mikvah (with the possible exception of Mary the Mother of Jesus who would have had to perform it after His birth) so how can your question be possibly answered?

    Richard Gillett
    I am an unworthy servant. But someone had to stand up and be counted.

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    I already gave my mea culpas Richard.
    "Everybody thinks they're doing the right thing." - Gordon Anke

    (One of wisest men I've known. RIP: March 5th 2017)

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    Richard Gillett (02-17-2017)

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