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Thread: Evolution: The Grand Deception

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShelbyGT View Post
    So then, that's a big fat NO! No, you have no other option for life's beginning. You could have just said that.

    I thought I was going to escape the dishonest claim, but true to form you threw it out there - again. There are only a few things that are certain; death, taxes and being called dishonest by TE.
    Since I asked Mike this question, I may as well ask his clone. How do you know Shelby? What special powers do you have to exclude all other possibilities of how life began. Prove to me that there are no other possibilities except natural or supernatural? Show me the difference between life being created from non-living materials, and a spiritual life? For you to claim that a dichotomy exists, you would have to first prove that all other possible hypothesis or ideas are false. Only a God can do that. Are you a God Shelby? So to avoid being intellectually dishonest again, how have you excluded all other possible ideas to formulate this self-serving dichotomy? Just more empty self-serving dishonesty. Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerh View Post
    Well, it got awfully big awfully fast is about all I can say.

    You need to ask an astrophysicist.

    Roger
    "Explosion" or not is of no significance other than for those who wish to play equivocation games.

    What is at issue here is the underlying canard that order cannot
    spontaneously arise from disorder.

    Flow of energy through a system acts to organize it.
    In accordance, of course, with natural law.

    As one physicist put it, btw, all of natural law is mathematical.

    And math cannot be any way other than what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly Enlightened View Post
    Since I asked Mike this question, I may as well ask his clone. How do you know Shelby? What special powers do you have to exclude all other possibilities of how life began. Prove to me that there are no other possibilities except natural or supernatural? Show me the difference between life being created from non-living materials, and a spiritual life? For you to claim that a dichotomy exists, you would have to first prove that all other possible hypothesis or ideas are false. Only a God can do that. Are you a God Shelby? So to avoid being intellectually dishonest again, how have you excluded all other possible ideas to formulate this self-serving dichotomy? Just more empty self-serving dishonesty. Don
    Tres amusant, the dishonest ones who try to make their moral lapses into someone else's fault. It never occurs to them, seemingly, to evade the "dishonest claim"
    by the simple but brilliant expedient of....being honest!!!

    I suppose there are parents who get angry at the police for arresting their precious;
    YOU are making my (little darlin') into a criminal!!!!!

    I notice that TE does not call me dishonest. It is not because we are pals.

    As for you, TE, are you not being a bit harsh? I mean, really, you would deprive the poor creo of the one thing that lets them think they are still in the game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
    Was it an explosion or not?
    No, it is the expansion of 2 dimensional space.
    Last edited by Truly Enlightened; 05-19-2017 at 10:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly Enlightened View Post
    No, it was an expansion of 2 dimensional space.
    It is absurdly easy to google these things. The willfully ignorant cannot risk it, tho.

    First thing, Live Science

    The Big Bang is science's best explanation for how the universe began. According to the theory, the universe started out much hotter and much denser than it is today, and expanded and cooled over time.

    Though the term may sound like the universe began with a giant explosion, many scientists say that's not part of the theory. An explosion implies that something exploded, or expanded, from one center point outward into space. In fact, the Big Bang theory suggests that space itself expanded.

    "If it were an explosion it would have a center," said physicist Paul Steinhardt, director of the Princeton Center for Theoretical Science at Princeton University in Princeton, N.J. "We actually observe that everything is moving away from everything else. It's really about an expansion of the universe .
    "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerh View Post
    Well, it got awfully big awfully fast is about all I can say.

    You need to ask an astrophysicist.

    Roger
    The Universe is only expanding. When we imagine the Universe expanding after the Big Bang, we imagine an explosion, with a spray of matter coming from a single point. Right? But this analogy isnít accurate. A better analogy would be to imagine the surface of an expanding balloon. Not the 3 dimensional balloon, just its 2 dimensional surface. If you were an ant crawling around the surface of a huge balloon, and the balloon was your whole universe, you would see the balloon as essentially flat under your feet. You might imagine a growing circle and wonder what itís expanding into. But thatís a nonsense question. Thereís no direction you could crawl that would get you outside the surface. Your 2-dimensional ant brain canít comprehend an expanding 3-dimensional object. There may be a center to the balloon, but thereís no center to the surface. Just a shape that extends in all directions and wraps in upon itself. And your journey to make one lap around the balloon, will take longer and longer as the balloon gets more inflated.

    Remember that our entire comprehension is based on 3-dimensions. If we were 4-dimensional creatures, this would make much more sense. Thereís no direction we could travel in, that would take us outside or ďoffĒ of the Universe. Even if we could move faster than the speed of light, we would just return to our starting position more quickly. There is nothing that our Universe is expanding into. It is only 2 dimensional space(not space-time) that is expanding. There is no such thing as empty space. Without matter and particles, there is no space at all. This intrinsic expansion of our Universe is not the same as an explosion, or normal expansion. As far as our observations can ascertain, it is a property of the entirety of the universe rather than a phenomenon that can be contained and observed from the outside.

    I sincerely hope that this helps a little. Maybe this site might help a little more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k3_...ature=youtu.be Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly Enlightened View Post
    The Universe is only expanding. When we imagine the Universe expanding after the Big Bang, we imagine an explosion, with a spray of matter coming from a single point. Right? But this analogy isnít accurate. A better analogy would be to imagine the surface of an expanding balloon. Not the 3 dimensional balloon, just its 2 dimensional surface. If you were an ant crawling around the surface of a huge balloon, and the balloon was your whole universe, you would see the balloon as essentially flat under your feet. You might imagine a growing circle and wonder what itís expanding into. But thatís a nonsense question. Thereís no direction you could crawl that would get you outside the surface. Your 2-dimensional ant brain canít comprehend an expanding 3-dimensional object. There may be a center to the balloon, but thereís no center to the surface. Just a shape that extends in all directions and wraps in upon itself. And your journey to make one lap around the balloon, will take longer and longer as the balloon gets more inflated.

    Remember that our entire comprehension is based on 3-dimensions. If we were 4-dimensional creatures, this would make much more sense. Thereís no direction we could travel in, that would take us outside or ďoffĒ of the Universe. Even if we could move faster than the speed of light, we would just return to our starting position more quickly. There is nothing that our Universe is expanding into. It is only 2 dimensional space(not space-time) that is expanding. There is no such thing as empty space. Without matter and particles, there is no space at all. This intrinsic expansion of our Universe is not the same as an explosion, or normal expansion. As far as our observations can ascertain, it is a property of the entirety of the universe rather than a phenomenon that can be contained and observed from the outside.

    I sincerely hope that this helps a little. Maybe this site might help a little more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k3_...ature=youtu.be Don
    http://www.businessinsider.com/what-...rral&r=UK&IR=T

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly Enlightened View Post
    Stop shifting responsibilities. There may be any number of ways life was created on this earth. It is the height of arrogance to expect me to know how life was created on this planet. It is also the height of ignorance to claim that if I don't know something that only a God would know, THAT YOU MUST BE RIGHT. Look Shelby, you cannot simply assert the conditions to justify your claims. In other words, you can't say that if I can't present any other alternative choice, that it proves that no other choices exists. Neither of us knows if our choices are correct. I simply don't know, but it's delusional to think that it means you are correct by default.

    You should not claim that there are any number of ways for life to begin and then claim that you cannot offer any alternatives other than the two mentioned. Either life began naturally from non-life or supernaturally.



    Unless any choice can be falsified, neither choice can be valid. I also noticed that you didn't address my life from non-life and spiritual life comment. Maybe you can tell me what the difference is? In this case, you are just merely being intellectually dishonest. Don

    Ah now that's more to the point! Once we've established that there are only two choices then if one is falsified the other must be true. You may now begin to see the implications of evolution falling into disrepute. What is left? The only other alternative that there is - special creation by an eternal spiritual being who has necessary life, that is, life in and of Himself.

    Thanks for the gratuitous accusation of being dishonest, I wouldn't want to break a streak. I have to ask, do you really take yourself seriously?
    Truth is like a lion, it does not need to be defended, simply let it loose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShelbyGT View Post
    You should not claim that there are any number of ways for life to begin and then claim that you cannot offer any alternatives other than the two mentioned.
    When you are right, you are right, which aint often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly Enlightened View Post
    Since I asked Mike this question, I may as well ask his clone. How do you know Shelby? What special powers do you have to exclude all other possibilities of how life began. Prove to me that there are no other possibilities except natural or supernatural? Show me the difference between life being created from non-living materials, and a spiritual life? For you to claim that a dichotomy exists, you would have to first prove that all other possible hypothesis or ideas are false. Only a God can do that. Are you a God Shelby? So to avoid being intellectually dishonest again, how have you excluded all other possible ideas to formulate this self-serving dichotomy? Just more empty self-serving dishonesty. Don


    One one of the main reasons is because you or anyone else I've asked has not been able to come up with an alternative. That's how I know there are no other alternatives. You can't think of one, I can't think of one and no one else I've asked has an answer either.

    Life has been eliminated from forming from non-life. You know all those experiments and stuff.

    Again, thanks for the gratuitous dishonest claim, it's a badge of honor to those who have honor and truth coming from the opposition.

    By the way, why not just offer another alternative? Hmm?
    Truth is like a lion, it does not need to be defended, simply let it loose.

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