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Thread: The Blatantly Corrupt And Grievously Flawed NWT

  1. #731
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    I like this description of Jesus at Revelation 19:13 in KJV: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    “Can we conceive of a greater incongruity, than for a Christian to go from his closet, where he has been praying for his enemies, and command his troops to plunge the weapons of death with fiend like fury, into the hearts of those very enemies? In the one case, he happily resembles his dying Master; but whom does he resemble in the other? Jesus prayed for his murderers. Christians murder those for whom they pray.” - Henry Grew, 1828

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    Quote Originally Posted by pastor2022 View Post
    Wow...one of many firstborn sons and one of many messiahs.
    The only firstborn, but one of many messiahs.

    That's quite interesting even from a JW perspective.
    I'm not a JW.

    I wonder how many other "sons" have created this world?
    God created this world, pastor... not any of his many sons. But we are told in many scriptures that God did that through his firstborn Son Jesus.

    How many other sons were called the "firstborn?"
    Jesus is God's only firstborn son.

    As to messiahs, how many can fulfill this part: "Joh 20:31 But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."(Bold Mine)? How many other "messiahs" can it be said of the following: Php_2:10 "that at the name of Jesus "every knee should bow," of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth,"(Bold Mine)? Or how about how many other messiahs is it ever said, 1Jn_5:13 "I wrote these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God "(Bold Mine)?
    Jesus is the only messiah of God about whom those things could be said. He is by far God's greatest christ, but by no means His only christ.

    I will certainly be interested in learning about all these other first born sons of God and other messiahs sent from God.
    Only one firstborn son. But see the link I just posted to Beowulf if you'd like to learn more about some of those other messiahs.

    Jesus knew who He was, John knew this, and so did Thomas (My Lord and My God) [and don't try to use the 'it was just an exclamation phrase...please].
    So why then don't you believe Jesus and John when they tells us who Jesus is? He is a god who worships and serves his own God: the Most High God of all the other gods, Jehovah.

    Seems to me some who have a different view of Christology from you...have a much higher view of Jesus. Just my observation.
    Yes. Some people have been misled into worshipping the creation as the Creator. Others have a much lower view of Jesus, and consider him nothing more than a man like the rest of us, who later became exalted by God. The scriptures teach something in between those two extremes. My understanding is based on those scriptures, and therefore aligns 100% with those scriptures.
    Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. (Job 41:11)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnB View Post
    TA PANTA...
    I'm sorry, but I'm no longer interested in your ta panta argument. It has already been solidly refuted by the scriptures themselves, in which the terms panta and ta panta are used interchangeably to refer to a hyperbolic (not literal) "all things".
    Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. (Job 41:11)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeboll64 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I'm no longer interested in your ta panta argument. It has already been solidly refuted by the scriptures themselves, in which the terms panta and ta panta are used interchangeably to refer to a hyperbolic (not literal) "all things".
    Not even close
    How far must someone fall before they hit their head? b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeboll64 View Post
    Feel free to forego all the could haves and should haves, pastor. This is all you need to know...

    John 20:31
    But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


    Jesus is one of God's many sons, and one of God's many messiahs - and therefore not the Most High God himself. John knew this, and so did Thomas. I know it, and so should you.
    M....,

    Please explain your conclusion...it is not clear and confirmation is absent from scriptures.
    Hi Preston,

    I'm afraid you'll have to be a little more specific. Which claim of mine above is inconsistent with the scriptures?
    Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. (Job 41:11)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnB View Post
    My conclusion would be polytheism.
    Yes, polytheism... a clear and undeniable teaching all throughout the scriptures. The scriptural teaching is not, as is commonly claimed, that there literally exists only one god. The scriptural teaching is there there exist many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth, and that Jehovah is the Most High God OF all those other gods.

    jig and I have just begun an in depth discussion on this subject in the Why the Trinity is a False Doctrine thread. This thread is supposed for discussing the blatantly corrupt and grievously flawed NWT. We are wandering far off the intended topic, but I'd love it if you want to join jig, I, and some others in that other thread where we can discuss this topic at length.

    (It's also time consuming to have the same discussion in two threads at the same time.)
    Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. (Job 41:11)

  9. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeboll64 View Post
    1 Chronicles 16:19-22
    When they were but few in number, few indeed, and strangers in it, they wandered from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another. He allowed no one to oppress them; for their sake he rebuked kings: “Do not touch my anointed ones (messiahs/mashiach); do my prophets no harm.”


    There are two full pages of scriptures with mashiach here, if you're interested. Although Jesus is by far God's most important messiah, he is one of many.
    Pastor 2022 said: "Eisegesis is such an interesting way of coming to conclusions." Which means: "the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas"

    You couldn't have proven him more correct if you tried.

    Maybe you didn't stop to consider how the root/base word is rendered? From YOUR source: http://classic.net.bible.org/strong.php?id=04899

    Mashiyach is rendered "anointed" 37 times in the Hebrew scriptures to include the scripture you quoted. It is rendered 2 times as Messiah and that was only for Jesus. (can you provide any scriptures that render this as Messiah anywhere else since it does not in the example you provided?)

    Jesus is one of many anointed ones but he is the only Messiah.

    No wonder you like the NWT, you try to do the same thing they do to support personal interpretation!
    "Ignorance Can Be Educated And Crazy Can Be Medicated But There's No Cure For Stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnB View Post
    The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

    Where did you come up with , "in us"?
    It says, καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν

    1 John 4:13 ἐν τούτῳ γινώσκομεν ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ μένομεν καὶ αὐτὸς ἐν ἡμῖν,
    1 John 4:13 in this we know that in Him we do remain, and He in us,

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnB View Post
    Certainly you did. There is no other way to understand it.

    Let's take a look.

    Theos

    O Theos

    The only difference between the two is the Greek article. If We remove the article "O" and all you have left is theos then you have theos and theos.

    By agreeing you admit that the article makes the statement "O Theos "absolute.

    If I am wrong then please explain
    I posted........From and old post.....Ignatius was an early Christian, said to have been a disciple of John, who often referred to Yeshua as god, but as Lightfoot says, where the divine name is assigned to Christ in these epistles, it is generally with the addition of the pronoun, 'our God,' 'my god,' as below........., or it has some defining words, such as in his epistle to the Smyrnaeans where he says, I give glory to Yeshua Christ the god who made you wise.

    Here, Lightfoot says that for reasons that had already been explained, ton theon must be closely connected to the words following. So here he refers to Yeshua as "the god", but it is "the god who has made them wise"

    Lightfoot goes on to say, Ignatius does not appear ever to call Jesus Christ God absolutely.

    ===
    So Ignatius could call Yeshua "the god", but only with some defining words, such as in his epistle to the Smyrnaeans where he says, I give glory to Yeshua Christ the god who made you wise.

    So he calls him "the god", but he defines it with who made me wise. Thomas could call Yeshua "the god", but define it with of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnB View Post
    TA PANTA

    The administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things [ta panta, the all]…. (Ephesians 3:9 NASB)
    Right, he created all things.

    For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things [ta panta, the all] is God. (Hebrews 3:4 NASB)
    Right again.

    "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things [ta panta, the all], and because of Your will they existed, and were created." (Revelation 4:11 NASB)
    So YHVH God alone is worthy to receive glory and honor and power; for he alone created all things.

    I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things [ta panta, the all]…. (1 Timothy 6:13 NASB)
    Still good, it is God alone who gives life. Although now, since the man Yeshua received life as his inheritance, he too can give life, the life he received from God.

    Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things [ta panta, the all], and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things [ta panta, the all], and we through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6 HCSB)
    So he says, for us there is one god, this being the Father.

    (16) For by Him all things [ta panta, the all] were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities―all things [ta panta, the all] have been created through Him and for Him. (17) He is before all things [panton], and in Him all things [ta panta, the all] hold together. (Colossians 1:16-17 NASB)
    So in the verses you quoted above it is already established that it is God alone who created all things, the heavens, the earth, and all things therein. So here it says, by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth,[/quote]

    So this is not speaking of the heavens and earth that God created, it is speaking of things "in" the heavens and earth. It as it says, is speaking of thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities. It is speaking of a new creation, or a new order that came into being when Yeshua was exalted.

    And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things [ta panta, the all] by the word of His power. (Hebrews 1:3 NASB)
    So this speaks of Yeshua, he is the exact representation of God, or he perfectly represents God.

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