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Thread: The Difference between "Master" and "LORD"

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    Default The Difference between "Master" and "LORD"

    Teaching from my favorite Rabbi. The Peshitta can be read online at www.peshitta.org


    One of the most confusing things about the Greek New Testament is dual usage of
    "Kurios" as both LORD (YHWH) and Master (Messiah). Let's recall the words of Dean
    Dana at the beginning of this book: After all, only the Peshitta boldly declares, “for today
    in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is YHWH the Messiah”
    (Luqa 2:11). All other versions keep you guessing as to who the ‘Master’ is. Indeed,
    Dean is 100% correct here, as the guesswork on the Greek side is quite unconscionable.
    Continuing his point though, Luke 2:11 is far from an isolated instance:
    Therefore I want you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of Eloah calls
    Y'shua accursed; and that no man can say that Y'shua is the MASTER (YHWH) but by
    the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew Gabriel Roth)
    For to this end even Messiah both died and came back to life, and rose to be YHWH both
    of the dead and the living.
    Romans 14:9 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew Gabriel Roth)
    For Eloah sent the word to the children of Israel, preaching peace and tranquility by
    Y'shua the Messiah; he is YHWH of all. Acts 10:36 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew
    Gabriel Roth To us there is one Eloha, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by
    whom we live; and one YHWH, Y'shua the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by
    Him. 1 Corinthians 8:6 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew Gabriel Roth)
    In all these cases, the key word is "MarYah", which is the Aramaic cognate for
    "YHWH". In fact, "MarYah" is a kind of contraction, jamming two separate words into
    one. Since "mar" means "Master" and "Yah" is the singular form of "YHWH", the term
    actually parses out as "The Master YHWH". Therefore, in these and many other places,
    the Peshitta New Testament leaves no doubt that Y'shua is in fact what
    Colossians 2:9 teaches, the full embodiment of the Godhead. Now, in terms of how we
    can have a divine Messiah but maintain the absolute oneness of YHWH simultaneously,
    that discussion will have to wait for later.
    For now, our focus here is on the fact that other times Y'shua's humanity is also being
    referenced:
    And said the apostles to Our Master, "Increase to us faith!"
    Luke 17:5 (Younan Peshitta Interlinear Version)
    And if anyone should ask you are loosing it thus, say to him, "Our Master needs it".
    Luke 19:31 (Younan Peshitta Interlinear Version)
    This is one of two forms of address that indicate Y'shua's humanity. In the case of Luke
    17:5, the narrator is assuming that anyone reading his work is a believer, which is why he
    says "the apostles said to Our
    Master", meaning Luke's Master/Master is the same as that of his audience. In Aramaic,
    "Our Master" is Maran and this is the cause of the odd phrase Paul gives in 1 Corinthians
    16:22, or "Maran Atha" (Our Master come), which is simply transliterated into Greek
    from an Aramaic document. Obviously also, "Our Master needs it" in Luke 19:31 is
    conjugated that was because it represents Y'shua's instructions to his
    followers.
    The other kind of human address to Y'shua is here:
    And answered Thomas to Him, "My Master, and my Eloah."
    John 20:28 (Younan Peshitta Interlinear Version)
    This verse sometimes creates confusion because it captures the moment that "doubting
    Thomas" finally believes. As a result, the expectation is that "Master" in English
    translations must then mean THE LORD, or YHWH. However, this is not the case. The
    main thing that Thomas is converted to is the divine side of Messiah, referenced by the
    phrase Alahi. In Aramaic, Alaha is the equivalent of Eloah in Hebrew, or the
    singular form of Elohim. To turn Alaha into a first person possessive of "my" then you
    drop the final "a" and substitute "i". So, what Thomas ends up saying is acknowledging
    both the human and divine sides of Messiah, with Mari/My Master to the former and
    Alahi/My Eloah to the latter.
    By this point though the reader may well ask, "That's all fine and good, but what does it
    have to do with the Gospel of Mark?" The answer is right here:
    And answered Y'shua and said while teaching in the Temple, "How do the scribes say
    that the Messiah is the son of David? For David spoke by the Holy Spirit (and) said that
    'YHWH said to My Master [Mari], sit on my right until I place your enemies (as) a
    footstool under your feet?' Since David calls Him 'my Master', then how is he his son?"
    And all of the crowds were gladly hearing Him.
    Mark 12:35-38 (Younan Peshitta Interlinear Version, cross-referenced by Andrew
    Gabriel Roth)
    So once again we see that the Peshitta does a great job at clearly
    delineating who is Master and who is LORD. The use of MarYah here as YHWH though
    sometimes obscures an important lesson:
    The use of the word Adonai in Psalm 110:1 creates confusion because sometimes it is
    used to designate YHWH and other times a mere man! In fact the Masoretes replaced
    YHWH with Adonai 134 times, but in other places, like the above passage, let Tanakh
    stand with readings of Adonai as a man. As it turns out also Mar and Adon are cognates
    of one another in their respective dialects. Therefore, what would read as
    "my Master" in Jerusalem (Adonai), would simply substitute the Babylonian equivalent
    to reflect the dialect of the Jews who translated Tanakh into their vernacular as Mari.
    In that context, David is writing that YHWH spoke to "his Master", or the Messiah that
    would come from his loins. The tricky part here is that Y'shua is pointing out that
    Messiah, while a descendant of David, is also superior to David!
    "Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonesoffire View Post
    Teaching from my favorite Rabbi. The Peshitta can be read online at www.peshitta.org


    One of the most confusing things about the Greek New Testament is dual usage of
    "Kurios" as both LORD (YHWH) and Master (Messiah). Let's recall the words of Dean
    Dana at the beginning of this book: After all, only the Peshitta boldly declares, “for today
    in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is YHWH the Messiah”
    (Luqa 2:11). All other versions keep you guessing as to who the ‘Master’ is. Indeed,
    Dean is 100% correct here, as the guesswork on the Greek side is quite unconscionable.
    Continuing his point though, Luke 2:11 is far from an isolated instance:
    Therefore I want you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of Eloah calls
    Y'shua accursed; and that no man can say that Y'shua is the MASTER (YHWH) but by
    the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew Gabriel Roth)
    For to this end even Messiah both died and came back to life, and rose to be YHWH both
    of the dead and the living.
    Romans 14:9 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew Gabriel Roth)
    For Eloah sent the word to the children of Israel, preaching peace and tranquility by
    Y'shua the Messiah; he is YHWH of all. Acts 10:36 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew
    Gabriel Roth To us there is one Eloha, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by
    whom we live; and one YHWH, Y'shua the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by
    Him. 1 Corinthians 8:6 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew Gabriel Roth)
    In all these cases, the key word is "MarYah", which is the Aramaic cognate for
    "YHWH". In fact, "MarYah" is a kind of contraction, jamming two separate words into
    one. Since "mar" means "Master" and "Yah" is the singular form of "YHWH", the term
    actually parses out as "The Master YHWH". Therefore, in these and many other places,
    the Peshitta New Testament leaves no doubt that Y'shua is in fact what
    Colossians 2:9 teaches, the full embodiment of the Godhead. Now, in terms of how we
    can have a divine Messiah but maintain the absolute oneness of YHWH simultaneously,
    that discussion will have to wait for later.
    For now, our focus here is on the fact that other times Y'shua's humanity is also being
    referenced:
    And said the apostles to Our Master, "Increase to us faith!"
    Luke 17:5 (Younan Peshitta Interlinear Version)
    And if anyone should ask you are loosing it thus, say to him, "Our Master needs it".
    Luke 19:31 (Younan Peshitta Interlinear Version)
    This is one of two forms of address that indicate Y'shua's humanity. In the case of Luke
    17:5, the narrator is assuming that anyone reading his work is a believer, which is why he
    says "the apostles said to Our
    Master", meaning Luke's Master/Master is the same as that of his audience. In Aramaic,
    "Our Master" is Maran and this is the cause of the odd phrase Paul gives in 1 Corinthians
    16:22, or "Maran Atha" (Our Master come), which is simply transliterated into Greek
    from an Aramaic document. Obviously also, "Our Master needs it" in Luke 19:31 is
    conjugated that was because it represents Y'shua's instructions to his
    followers.
    The other kind of human address to Y'shua is here:
    And answered Thomas to Him, "My Master, and my Eloah."
    John 20:28 (Younan Peshitta Interlinear Version)
    This verse sometimes creates confusion because it captures the moment that "doubting
    Thomas" finally believes. As a result, the expectation is that "Master" in English
    translations must then mean THE LORD, or YHWH. However, this is not the case. The
    main thing that Thomas is converted to is the divine side of Messiah, referenced by the
    phrase Alahi. In Aramaic, Alaha is the equivalent of Eloah in Hebrew, or the
    singular form of Elohim. To turn Alaha into a first person possessive of "my" then you
    drop the final "a" and substitute "i". So, what Thomas ends up saying is acknowledging
    both the human and divine sides of Messiah, with Mari/My Master to the former and
    Alahi/My Eloah to the latter.
    By this point though the reader may well ask, "That's all fine and good, but what does it
    have to do with the Gospel of Mark?" The answer is right here:
    And answered Y'shua and said while teaching in the Temple, "How do the scribes say
    that the Messiah is the son of David? For David spoke by the Holy Spirit (and) said that
    'YHWH said to My Master [Mari], sit on my right until I place your enemies (as) a
    footstool under your feet?' Since David calls Him 'my Master', then how is he his son?"
    And all of the crowds were gladly hearing Him.
    Mark 12:35-38 (Younan Peshitta Interlinear Version, cross-referenced by Andrew
    Gabriel Roth)
    So once again we see that the Peshitta does a great job at clearly
    delineating who is Master and who is LORD. The use of MarYah here as YHWH though
    sometimes obscures an important lesson:
    The use of the word Adonai in Psalm 110:1 creates confusion because sometimes it is
    used to designate YHWH and other times a mere man! In fact the Masoretes replaced
    YHWH with Adonai 134 times, but in other places, like the above passage, let Tanakh
    stand with readings of Adonai as a man. As it turns out also Mar and Adon are cognates
    of one another in their respective dialects. Therefore, what would read as
    "my Master" in Jerusalem (Adonai), would simply substitute the Babylonian equivalent
    to reflect the dialect of the Jews who translated Tanakh into their vernacular as Mari.
    In that context, David is writing that YHWH spoke to "his Master", or the Messiah that
    would come from his loins. The tricky part here is that Y'shua is pointing out that
    Messiah, while a descendant of David, is also superior to David!
    I am trying to decipher a truckload of data here. This statement makes no sense at the beginning of your post:

    : After all, only the Peshitta boldly declares, “for today
    in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is YHWH the Messiah”
    (Luqa 2:11).

    I did not see 'YHWH' in your linked Peshitta interpretation.

    0ml9
    world
    F0
    a sign
    Jwkl
    to you
    0dhw
    and this is
    .12 dywdd
    of Dawid
    htnydmb
    in the city
    0xy4m
    the Messiah
    0yrm
    the LORD
    Mysw
    and lying
    0rwrz9b
    in swaddling clothes
    Kyrkd
    who is wrapped
    fw9
    an infant
    Jwtn0
    you
    Nyxk4m
    will

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    Secondly, this one is convoluted to my own paradigm which says Eloah = YHWH.

    For Eloah sent the word to the children of Israel, preaching peace and tranquility by
    Y'shua the Messiah; he is YHWH of all. Acts 10:36 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew
    Gabriel Roth To us there is one Eloha, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by
    whom we live; and one YHWH, Y'shua the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by
    Him.
    You are separating El, or Elohim with YHWH it seems. This goes against all the formulations in OT regarding YHWH Elohim.

    YeshaYahu 44:8-20, “ ‘ 8 do not dread, nor be afraid. have I not declared and made you hear since then? so you are my witnesses, is there an eloah besides me? yes, there is none.

    YeshaYahu 46:1-9,

    5 to whom will you compare and make me equal; yes, compare me, that we may be alike?

    8 remember this and be a man; return it on your heart, transgressors. 9 remember former things from forever, for I am el, and no one else is elohiym, even none like me, ‘ “

    YeshaYahu 45:20-25,

    and there is no elohiym other than me; a just el and a savior; there is none except me. 22 turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am el, and there is no other. 23 i have sworn by myself, the word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and will not return,

    YirmeYahu 3:20-25, “surely as a wife treacherously departs from her lover, so you have dealt treacherously with me, beyth yisrael [house of israel], declares YHWH. 21 a voice was heard weeping on the bare heights, pleadings of the sons of yisrael; for they have perverted their way; they have forgotten YHWH their elohey. 22 turn and return, backsliding sons; i will heal your backsliding. look, we come to you, for you are YHWH our elohey. 23 truly, for delusion comes from the hills, tumult on the mountains. truly, in YHWH our elohey is the salvation of yisrael. 24 for the shameful thing has eaten up the labor of our fathers from our youth, their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters. 25 we lie down in our shame, and our confusion covers us. for we have sinned against YHWH our elohey, we and our fathers, from our youth even to this day. and we have not obeyed the voice of YHWH our elohey.”

    (This last emphasizes the one EL considers Himself to be YHWH ELOHEY).

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    I think I'm honing in to your pet theory's dynamic, which makes the Greek word, 'kurios' into the Aramaic word, 'Mar-Yah.'
    Which you then say means YHWH. Eventually 'proving' Jesus is YHWH.

    And so you're in love with this guy, Andrew Gabriel Roth who is a trinitarian messianic.

    And HE says Mar-Yah means YHWH when in the Aramaic it only means a high form of 'lord.'

    The Aramaic is not capitalized, so you are inferring maryah is Mar-Yah. Then you use an etymological rationalization
    to claim the word for 'lord' in Aramaic actually means 'God.'

    That's like saying Jesus means Yah our salvation therefore YAHWEH. Hee hee.

    Maryah means 'lord.' Period. Don't insert the Aramaic and then smooge us with this -- it is really another example of 'sleight of mind.'

    Your man is a rationalizer, Stones. Maybe HE is the one smoking that wacky tabaccy.
    Last edited by nothead; 04-03-2012 at 04:54 AM.

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    Nothead, does not Saviour translate to Yeshu? Yeshua...

    Nazarene Jews nothead. Not the traditional Messianic...and not what one calls Kabbalah such as a famous worldly singer has joined.

    And Jesus was a Nazarene.

    You know that the Peshitta is a translation from Hebrew.

    For me, this is like the beginning of my salvation. I read the Living Bible...knew nothing but Jesus was our Saviour. Then the Lord took me on to study. This mans interpretation is like the Living Bible. I have to trust him and trust the Lord that he is correctly translating.

    After all isn't that what you do with the greek?

    One of us has to be right concerning the deity of Jesus. I cannot see how He could be otherwise for only God can forgive sins, and only God can give authority to man to work in His name.
    "Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music."

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    Your question was answered here:


    Let's recall the words of Dean
    Dana at the beginning of this book: After all, only the Peshitta boldly declares, “for today
    in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is YHWH the Messiah”
    (Luqa 2:11). All other versions keep you guessing as to who the ‘Master’ is. Indeed,
    Dean is 100% correct here, as the guesswork on the Greek side is quite unconscionable.
    Continuing his point though, Luke 2:11 is far from an isolated instance:
    Therefore I want you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of Eloah calls
    Y'shua accursed; and that no man can say that Y'shua is the MASTER (YHWH) but by
    the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew Gabriel Roth)
    For to this end even Messiah both died and came back to life, and rose to be YHWH both
    of the dead and the living.
    "Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonesoffire View Post
    Nothead, does not Saviour translate to Yeshu? Yeshua...

    Nazarene Jews nothead. Not the traditional Messianic...and not what one calls Kabbalah such as a famous worldly singer has joined.

    And Jesus was a Nazarene.

    You know that the Peshitta is a translation from Hebrew.

    For me, this is like the beginning of my salvation. I read the Living Bible...knew nothing but Jesus was our Saviour. Then the Lord took me on to study. This mans interpretation is like the Living Bible. I have to trust him and trust the Lord that he is correctly translating.

    After all isn't that what you do with the greek?

    One of us has to be right concerning the deity of Jesus. I cannot see how He could be otherwise for only God can forgive sins, and only God can give authority to man to work in His name.
    We have to stick to the program, dear. Here is where you exclaim great disgust in my own interpretation of Mar-yah the Aramaic word translated Lord by Lamsa.
    And present evidence your man whom you pay homage to is right. Specifically other evidence that Mar-yah = YHWH proponents are correct in their
    redefinition of the Aramaic lexicon.

    I realize this issue will be a passionate one 'til the Second Coming. But debate has to follow a logical sequence in order to be conclusive, eventually or no.
    You see Jesus as God. I do not. Now we dance and who ends up the winner must be decided by a clear train of thought.

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    Maybe HE is the one smoking that wacky tabaccy.
    These kind of comments are unnecessary and not of the fruits of Holy Spirit.
    "Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music."

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    I would not even debate the issue if I did not see that this is the most important nothead. AntiChrist is an evil spirit. And lambs that have not matured can be confused.
    "Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonesoffire View Post
    Your question was answered here:


    Let's recall the words of Dean
    Dana at the beginning of this book: After all, only the Peshitta boldly declares, “for today
    in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is YHWH the Messiah”
    (Luqa 2:11). All other versions keep you guessing as to who the ‘Master’ is. Indeed,
    Dean is 100% correct here, as the guesswork on the Greek side is quite unconscionable.
    Continuing his point though, Luke 2:11 is far from an isolated instance:
    Therefore I want you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of Eloah calls
    Y'shua accursed; and that no man can say that Y'shua is the MASTER (YHWH) but by
    the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3 (Lamsa, cross-referenced by Andrew Gabriel Roth)
    For to this end even Messiah both died and came back to life, and rose to be YHWH both
    of the dead and the living.

    Buh, BUT. (Jumping up and down and stomping my foot). I need to know Mar-yah does not mean just Lord, but actually means YHWH in order to see your view.

    Please present your evidence, missus. We are but electrons colliding in space for a moment. Make the most of the moment. I am open-moment minded.

    The etymological support seems awfully thin. Words only mean what we say them to. Convention first. Origins are generally of secondary consideration.

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