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Thread: Greek question John 1:3-4

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    Default Greek question John 1:3-4

    3 πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν 4 ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων

    NOTE: The Oldest manuscripts in question (P66, P 75 A and B)

    In these oldest texts we see no punctuation in the highlighted red area. οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν 4 ἐν

    Later around the 4th century, punctuation was added . This punctuation brought about serious theological implications.

    Implication #1 If we understand this idea from the above mentioned manuscripts ὃ γέγονεν with what follows we would understand the text to be saying that all things were created by Him (Christ)

    Implication #2 If we understand this idea from the above mentioned manuscripts (ὃ γέγονεν) with what comes before it (anaphoric) we would understand this text to be saying that even the Holy Spirit was a created thing.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    GTM

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    It seems to me that the question hinges, not so much on the punctuation here, but on one's prior understanding of who (or, if you prefer, what) the Holy Spirit is.
    ...and without him, no thing that exists was made. In him was life...
    ...and without him, no thing was made. What came about in him was life...
    If one is disposed, for other reasons, to include the Spirit within the category of 'created thing', one will do so here; if not, then not. The same goes for Genesis 1:2, as well, I would imagine.

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    andyjoneszz

    I agree

    Bubba

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTM View Post
    3 πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν 4 ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων

    NOTE: The Oldest manuscripts in question (P66, P 75 A and B)

    In these oldest texts we see no punctuation in the highlighted red area. οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν 4 ἐν

    Later around the 4th century, punctuation was added . This punctuation brought about serious theological implications.

    Implication #1 If we understand this idea from the above mentioned manuscripts ὃ γέγονεν with what follows we would understand the text to be saying that all things were created by Him (Christ)

    Implication #2 If we understand this idea from the above mentioned manuscripts (ὃ γέγονεν) with what comes before it (anaphoric) we would understand this text to be saying that even the Holy Spirit was a created thing.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    GTM
    I just want to notate something. You said that the oldest texts have no punctuation in them but in the fourth century punctuation was added. Assuming your statement about the "oldest" texts having them in it is true (of which I prefer to make no comment), it looks like you assume that since the punctuation was FOUND in later manuscripts that it means it was ADDED. This is a very large assumption. To further assume that the extant manuscripts give us a complete view into each century is also not beyond criticism.

    What are your thoughts on this?
    ___________________________________
    "Nevertheless, What Saith the Scriptures?..." Galatians 4:30a

    "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee." Psalms 122:6

    "When people speak dogmatically on matters beyond their expertise, they are either expressing a deep faith or a deep bias, or both." --Marvin L. Lubenow

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    Bibleman7

    This is a very large assumption. To further assume that the extant manuscripts give us a complete view into each century is also not beyond criticism.
    So you believe that the Holy Spirit was created. Is that correct?

    Bubba

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    lol of course not. I was merely pointing out some assumptions, commonly made when discussing manuscripts.
    ___________________________________
    "Nevertheless, What Saith the Scriptures?..." Galatians 4:30a

    "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee." Psalms 122:6

    "When people speak dogmatically on matters beyond their expertise, they are either expressing a deep faith or a deep bias, or both." --Marvin L. Lubenow

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    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman7 View Post
    lol of course not. I was merely pointing out some assumptions, commonly made when discussing manuscripts.
    Codex Vaticanus (B), the earliest of the great parchment manuscripts at about 300 AD, has resided in the Vatican since the middle ages and remains there today. It is one of the most important manuscripts for textual criticism.

    Codex Sinaiticus (Sin.) dates to about 350 AD. It was discovered in 1844 in a monastery on Mount Sinai by a Russian. After some resistance, he persuaded the resident monks to allow him to take it to St. Petersburg. On Christmas Eve, 1933, the Soviet government sold it to the British Museum for 100,000 pounds. It was put on permanent display in the British Library, where it still resides, along with other early biblical manuscripts. {5}

    Codex Alexandrinus (A), dating to circa 450 AD, was transferred from the Christian library in Alexandria to the British Library in the seventeenth century, where it still resides today. The Catholic Encyclopedia details its history: Codex A was the first of the great uncials to become known to the learned world. When Cyril Lucar, Patriarch of Alexandria, was transferred in 1621 to the Patriarchate of Constantinople, he is believed to have brought the codex with him. Later he sent it as a present to King James I of England; James died before the gift was presented, and Charles I, in 1627, accepted it in his stead. It is now the chief glory of the British Museum in its manuscript department and is on exhibition there.
    You can see the ALL CAPS, No punctuation, no verses, no spacing, no chapters here:
    http://www.earlham.edu/~seidti/iam/tc_codexs.html
    1Ch 25:5 all these were sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his power;
    Hozeh ("seer") also means "to see" or "to perceive," but is also used in reference to musicians. It is also used to describe a counselor or an advisor to a king. The Hebrew does not necessarily indicate that the person is a prophet, but rather an advisor—someone who has wisdom.
    It means "one who has insight." Hence, the essential meaning in Greek is "interpreter."

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    What you have in the beginning of John is a form of poetry, called Staircase Parallelism.
    Starting with Verse 1, with the punctuation as supplied the W/Hort Greek Text:

    EN ARCH HN O LOGOS, KAI
    O LOGOS HN PROS TON QEON, KAI
    QEOS HN O LOGOS
    Now with verses 3 and 4:

    PANTA DI AUTOU EGENETO, KAI
    CWRIS AUTOU EGENETO OUDE EN.
    O GEGONEN EN AUTW ZWH HN,
    KAI H ZWH HN TO FWS TWN ANQRWPWN

    Verse 5 (Which continues from v3&4, its just hard to shift it all the way):

    KAI TO FWS EN TH SKOTIA FAINEI,
    KAI H SKOTIA AUTO OU KATELABEN
    Now in English,

    In the beginning was the Word, and
    _________________ the Word was toward the God,
    ____________________________________ and god was the Word.

    2. This one was in [the] beginning with God (Not Staircase form)

    All (things) thru him came-to-be, and
    ____ apart from him came-to-be nothing not but one (thing).
    ________ which has come to be in him life was, and
    _____________________________ the life was the light of the men;
    ____________________________________ and the light in the darkness is shining
    _____________________________________________ and the darkness it not overpowered.

    Remember 1st century koine greek was all same case, no puncturation, and no spaces between words. Other parts of the bible are in the form. I would image you at times felt a certain rythim reading this.

    It only makes sense here to leave "what has come to be" as part of verse 4.

    Note how all the early Fathers took this verse and how it is when we get closer to Nicaea, the sentiment changes. These stats can all be derived from the Nestle Aland 27th edition.

    "What came to be through____"and without Him nothing
    him was life, and this life______was made that was made." NKJV
    was the light of men." NAB

    _____________________________________
    Naassenes II/III
    Theodotus (ac. to Cl) II
    Valentinians(ac.to Ir) 160
    Diatessaron II
    Ptolemy II
    HeracleonII
    Theophilus 180
    Perateni III
    Irenaeus 202
    Clement 215
    Tertullian 220
    Hippolutus 235
    Origen 254___________ Adamantius 300
    Eusebius 339 _________Alexander 373
    Ambrosiaster IV________Ephraem 373
    Hilary 367_____________Didymus 398
    Athanasius 373________ Epiphanus 403
    Cyril (Jerusalem) 386____Chrysostom 420
    Epiphanus 403________ Jerome 420
    _____________________Nonnus 431
    _____________________Pseudo Ignatius V
    _______________________________________

    We can see from the above that the closer one gets to Trinitarian controversy surrounding Nicaea, the more the punctuation changes in favor of showing Jesus as creator. The change is evidently theological, promoting a certain doctrine. It does not reflect the ancient text.

    Agape, Stan

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    Hello Thread,

    Well, my thoughts are, you aught to get the text correct by it's historical evidence. Then go figure what it's impact is for your theology.
    These stats can all be derived from the Nestle Aland 27th edition notes. They have already done this research for you! Why no comments??
    Even Athanasius (373) got this one correct!

    Agape, Stan

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    Stan

    The Staircase parallel proves nothing in regards to who Christ is. All it does is creates grammatical difficulties for the origin of the Holy Spirit. My question to you would be, "Was the Holy Spirit created"? Or did the Holy Spirit always exist. If you state that the Holy Spirit always existed then you have the same grammatical difficulties with this text as well as does the evangelical community.

    Bubba
    Last edited by Bubba; 03-30-2011 at 03:40 PM.

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